Rapture! Tribulation!

[GaryA]

Ok then, Precious friend, seems we kindly and humbly "agree to disagree" after 40-some years of
study for each of us, Without the name-calling and false accusations = I Really appreciate that,
because:

I just don't see much of that anymore = Thanks!!!

Well - there is no reason to get into the name-calling, etc. (I always try to focus on the 'what' and not the 'who'.) - if we both have placed our belief, faith, and trust in God/Christ, then we are Christian brothers - and, that is the most important thing. Eschatology is important but is secondary in the sense that it should not be a point of contention or controversy to the point of destroying the relationship between brothers/sisters in Christ.

We can "agree to disagree agreeably" because - "time will tell" - in time, all questions will be answered - and, we will all know the truth.

May God Very Richly Encourage and Edify you on your own "Grace journey."

Amen.

I appreciate this - because, I very rarely ever see it...

 

[Lovette]

I will agree that there is no seven year tribulation. There is no 7-year 'prophetic' End Times period.

I cannot agree that [the] 'great tribulation' (as referred to in Matthew 24:21) is a 3.5 year period.

The only 3.5 year 'prophetic' End Times period is the Two Witnesses. And, it begins at the end of this same 'great tribulation' mentioned above. The description in Matthew 24:29 coincides with the Two Witnesses period of time. The return of Christ follows at the end of that period of time.

Please see this web page:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Order_Of_Events.html


In the chart on the above web page - for each of the columns, verses of scripture that "go together" (in the [same] time frame of that column) are presented together in that column. Pay close attention to the Two Witnesses verses along with the Trumpet verses and those about the bottomless pit and the beast that ascends out of it after it is opened.

Please also see this web page:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Time_Line.html

Please see these posts from the past:

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...-john-f-walvoord.198357/page-193#post-4582092
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...-john-f-walvoord.198357/page-219#post-4588602
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...-john-f-walvoord.198357/page-232#post-4591063
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...he-modern-church.201091/page-200#post-4718501
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...-or-second-coming.207494/page-21#post-4934207
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...already-fulfilled.213321/page-15#post-5211115

You're entitled to your own definition of "great tribulation." As for me, it's the 3.5 year reign of the Beast granted by God, which coincides with the 3.5 year ministry of the two witnesses. This period begins with the removal of the great apostasy and the revealing of the Antichrist.

The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. (Rev. 13:5)

He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time. (Dan. 7:25)

Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. (2 Thess. 2:3)

 

[Lovette]

Well it's 1260 days X 2, right? So it is a 7 year period but the first 3.5 years is when they try to get the people to accept extra-terrestrial Aliens which I believe is the Lie. They are not extra terrestrial from a distant star system, they are in truth Demonic hyper-dimensional beings, every one of them. We have been given authority over demons un the Name of Jesus.

I heard a testimony from a guy who had occasion to come face to face with a so called Alien and was scared so he invoked the Name of Jesus to the "Alien" and the guy said it was like he gut punched the evil spirit/alien thing, and it was over at that point and the Alien didnt want to talk anymore lol!

They might try to be friendly at first. No I dont want to go onto no alien ship and that thing is not coming in my house! (In the Name of Jesus!!!) Remember that Brothers & Sisters

Wrong. There's no "1260 days X 2", all five mentions refer to the SAME period of the Antichrist's reign. When something it's repeated in the bible, it's repeated for emphasis.

 

[Lovette]

I think it's in Daniel 9!

No there isn't. Daniel.s 70 weeks were already fulfilled, there's no 2000+ year gap between the 69th and the last one.

 

[Lovette]

I will agree that the 'tribulation' is not the Wrath of God.

Wrath of God only targets those with the mark of the Beast, wrath of Satan targets those NOT with the mark of the Beast.

 

[GaryA]

As for me, it's the 3.5 year reign of the Beast granted by God, which coincides with the 3.5 year ministry of the two witnesses. This period begins with the removal of the great apostasy and the revealing of the Antichrist.

Your definition of 'great tribulation' does not match what the same phrase in Matthew 24:21 is referring to. For one thing, the time of the Two Witnesses is post-'great tribulation' (as referred to in Matthew 24:21).

Please consider reading what is written in/on all of the web pages and posts linked to earlier in post #164 and carefully consider what they are trying to convey.

The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. (Rev. 13:5)

This is past history.

He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time. (Dan. 7:25)

This is past history.

Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. (2 Thess. 2:3)

This is future. (we agree)

As you begin to formulate a response to this post - just remember that I actually agree with some of the things you have said in this thread. I am not against you.

 

[GaryA]

No there isn't. Daniel.s 70 weeks were already fulfilled, there's no 2000+ year gap between the 69th and the last one.

For example, I agree that there are no gaps in the 70 weeks of Daniel.

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Seventy_Weeks.html

 

[Edward429451]

Now you are talking about the 'time of Jacob's trouble':

Jeremiah 30:

7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

(not the 'great tribulation')

Sigh. I have always been taught that the time of Jacobs trouble is another name for the great tribulation?

How can we be so far apart? We both have the Holy Spirit leading us into all truth so why do we have different ideas on the doctrine?

 

[Edward429451]

He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time. (Dan. 7:25)

This is past history.

There's one more week. (The great Trib) is 3.5 years of it, times, time and half a time (Year). There's another place in Daniel that references times, time and half a time again which is 1260 days.

 

[Lovette]

Your definition of 'great tribulation' does not match what the same phrase in Matthew 24:21 is referring to. For one thing, the time of the Two Witnesses is post-'great tribulation' (as referred to in Matthew 24:21).

Please consider reading what is written in/on all of the web pages and posts linked to earlier in post #164 and carefully consider what they are trying to convey.

There's only one great tribulation of 3.5 years, which is one and the same of the two witnesses's ministry. In Matt. 24:22 Jesus said it will be shortened for the elect's sake, yet you're lengthening it by adding extra time.

This is past history.

This is preterism heresy.

This is future. (we agree)

As you begin to formulate a response to this post - just remember that I actually agree with some of the things you have said in this thread. I am not against you.

My only bottom line is 3.5 year great tribulation, what is past history is Daniel's 70 weeks, including the last one, which was fulfilled by Lord Jesus.

 

[Lovette]

There's one more week. (The great Trib) is 3.5 years of it, times, time and half a time (Year). There's another place in Daniel that references times, time and half a time again which is 1260 days.

No there's not, on this one I do agree with Gary. When a time period is proposed, by default it is assumed to be continuous, there is no 2000+ year gap between the 69th and the 70th. The seven year tribulation narrative reads a lot of fictional stuffs into the text. In Dan. 9:27, the end of sacrifice and offering was the Lord's crucifixion, He was the ultimate sacrifice and offering which ended the tradition of animal sacrifice, the purpose of atonement for sin was accomplished. It is erroneous to assume that animal sacrifice must be resumed just so that the Antichrist could end it.

 

[GaryA]

There's only one great tribulation of 3.5 years, which is one and the same of the two witnesses's ministry. In Matt. 24:22 Jesus said it will be shortened for the elect's sake, yet you're lengthening it by adding extra time.

1) What makes you think the two occupy the same time frame? Scripture/Verses please.

2) Has it never occurred to you that any particular length of time frame can be shortened?

This is preterism heresy.

And, I am not a preterist. Nonetheless, some Bible prophecy has already come to pass.

My only bottom line is 3.5 year great tribulation, what is past history is Daniel's 70 weeks, including the last one, which was fulfilled by Lord Jesus.

I sure am glad you understand the time frame of the 70 weeks of Daniel.

 

[Lovette]

1) What makes you think the two occupy the same time frame? Scripture/Verses please.

2) Has it never occurred to you that any particular length of time frame can be shortened?

But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth. (Rev. 11:2-3)

He (Antichrist) was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. (Rev. 13:5)

These are the same 3.5 years inparticular, my conclusion is that they are the same 3.5 years. What has occurred to me is that if you add any extra time on top of the 3.5 years, that's lengthening the great tribulation instead of shortening.

And, I am not a preterist. Nonetheless, some Bible prophecy has already come to pass.

Not the ones regarding the Antichrist and Lord Christ's second coming.

I sure am glad you understand the time frame of the 70 weeks of Daniel.

For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. (Rev. 22:18-19)

 

[Edward429451]

No there's not, on this one I do agree with Gary. When a time period is proposed, by default it is assumed to be continuous, there is no 2000+ year gap between the 69th and the 70th. The seven year tribulation narrative reads a lot of fictional stuffs into the text. In Dan. 9:27, the end of sacrifice and offering was the Lord's crucifixion, He was the ultimate sacrifice and offering which ended the tradition of animal sacrifice, the purpose of atonement for sin was accomplished. It is erroneous to assume that animal sacrifice must be resumed just so that the Antichrist could end it.

Hey Brother, don't underestimate the stupidity of the Israeli's !! They are just dumb enough to build another temple and start sacrificing again in modern times!

Watch and see. They are ready to start construction right now!

 

[Lovette]

Hey Brother, don't underestimate the stupidity of the Israeli's !! They are just dumb enough to build another temple and start sacrificing again in modern times!

Watch and see. They are ready to start construction right now!

No they won't. The third temple is our body temple, there won't be a third temple rebuilt on the temple mount. It is written in the 70 weeks prophecy that the abomination of desolation was determined.

 

[Edward429451]

No they won't. The third temple is our body temple, there won't be a third temple rebuilt on the temple mount. It is written in the 70 weeks prophecy that the abomination of desolation was determined.

but did Israel get the memo? I don't think they did.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

1) What makes you think the two occupy the same time frame? Scripture/Verses please.

2) Has it never occurred to you that any particular length of time frame can be shortened?


And, I am not a preterist. Nonetheless, some Bible prophecy has already come to pass.


I sure am glad you understand the time frame of the 70 weeks of Daniel.

No they won't. The third temple is our body temple, there won't be a third temple rebuilt on the temple mount. It is written in the 70 weeks prophecy that the abomination of desolation was determined.

Revelation 11:1 I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers. 2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.


This means the area will be shared. The Dome of the Rock and Al-Aqsa mosque won't need to be torn down. The third temple will be built.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

There's one more week. (The great Trib) is 3.5 years of it, times, time and half a time (Year). There's another place in Daniel that references times, time and half a time again which is 1260 days.

Precious friend, there is also this to add for Careful Consideration into
the equation of "shortening of days", eh?:

"He Spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard;​

and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. Then said he unto the​

dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this​

fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?​

​

And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig​

about it, and dung it: And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou​

shalt cut it down." (Luke 16:13-19 AV)​

Possible Meaning of this parable?:

The Father Planted [ fig tree ] Israel in His Vineyard and Sent His SON to "seek
fruit" [ a repentant nation? ] for three years. A remnant did so, but the leaders had
Him Crucified and Buried. When He Rose again, He Asked The Father for "one more
year to dig and dung" [ Holy Spirit Power Sent ] to "bear fruit" [ national repentance? ].

One year later [ Philip preaching By "The Spirit" ], was "stoned to death" Committing
"The Unpardonable sin [ Blasphemy Of The Holy Spirit? ]", refusing to "bear fruit",
(Acts 7 AV), then they were "cut down" [ "Israel fell and was 'Set Aside' By The Father" ]?

If this 'possibility' is Correct, then will there only be 6 years left [ of the Seventieth Week ]
for Great Tribulation for Israel, and would this "one year" Shorten the first 3.5 years?

What think ye?
=====================
And, precious friend(s), Please Be Very Richly Encouraged and Edified
In The Lord Jesus Christ and In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided:

The Bible: The BIG Picture

Amen.

 

[Lovette]

but did Israel get the memo? I don't think they did.

Look, I'm no antisemite, I support Israel, I stand in solidarity with God's chosen people. A Faustian deal with the devil makes a good political thriller, but that's all it is, a political thriller.

 

[Lovette]

Revelation 11:1 I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers. 2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.


This means the area will be shared. The Dome of the Rock and Al-Aqsa mosque won't need to be torn down. The third temple will be built.

That temple is in heaven for illustration, not a real one on earth.

Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail. (Rev. 11:19)