Rapture! Tribulation!

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Most of the Bible believers can read and understand it. But there's a 1% amount of scripture that a believer can not understand without knowing the Greek language with its nuances. Matthew 24 is one of them. And what most people do is think that Rapture has to be post trib because of Matthew 24. But the disciples asked Jesus 3 questions and if you read it carefully you may see that Jesus finishes answering the 3 questions and then changes the subject to the rapture as an add on to their discussion. Jesus gets done talking about end times 2nd coming and starts talking about the rapture, which takes place before the great trib because the Bride of Christ is not appointed unto the wrath of God.

Can you find the change of subject in Matthew 24? ;)

Never base an eschatology viewpoint on one chapter in a gospel.
 
Because most people go to the Bible to PROVE what they believe, not to learn the truth.
Most do not know how to "rightly divide" the Word.

Something else to mention; try and avoid using the uppercase "Word" unless your referring to Jesus.
 
no sir. You misunderstood me. I am solidly Pre Trib.

Here is an explanation of the difference between Matthew 24 and Luke 21.

Using AI.

Below is a Scripture-only comparison showing that Matthew 24 compresses events, while Luke 21 clearly separates the destruction of Jerusalem from the final eschatological climax and explicitly introduces the times of the Gentiles.


1. The Disciples’ Questions
Matthew’s compressed framing

Matthew 24:1–3


“Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?”​

Three ideas appear together:


  • destruction of the temple
  • Christ’s coming
  • the end of the age

Matthew records the discourse without a clear chronological divider.


Luke’s clarified framing

Luke 21:5–7


“As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another…​
And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?”​

Luke keeps the focus initially on Jerusalem and the temple, not immediately on the end of the age.


2. The Abomination / Desolation
Matthew (Daniel language, compressed)

Matthew 24:15


“When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place…”​

Matthew:


  • Uses Danielic terminology
  • Immediately moves toward great tribulation and cosmic signs

Luke (historical clarification)

Luke 21:20


“And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.”​

Luke:


  • Explains the abomination in historical terms
  • Identifies it with Jerusalem surrounded by armies
  • Makes no immediate jump to cosmic or final events

3. The Destruction of Jerusalem
Matthew (brief, blended)

Matthew 24:16–21


“Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains…​
For then shall be great tribulation…”​

Jerusalem’s fall is present, but not isolated from end-time imagery.


Luke (fully defined historical judgment)

Luke 21:24


“And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles…”​

This verse has no parallel in Matthew.


4. The Key Divider: The Times of the Gentiles

Luke 21:24


“…until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”​

This verse creates a chronological gap:


  • Jerusalem destroyed
  • Long Gentile period
  • End not yet arrived

Matthew does not explicitly state this interval.


5. The End Times Proper
Matthew (no explicit pause)

Matthew 24:29–30


“Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened…​
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven…”​

Matthew flows directly from tribulation to cosmic signs.


Luke (explicitly resumes after Gentile age)

Luke 21:25–27


“And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars…​
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.”​

Luke resumes after:


  • Jerusalem’s fall
  • Gentile domination

6. Summary (Scripture-Derived)


7. Scriptural Conclusion

Luke distinguishes:


  • A.D. 70 judgment
  • A prolonged Gentile age
  • The final coming of the Son of Man

Matthew compresses:


  • Near judgment
  • Far eschatological fulfillment

Both are true, but Luke provides explicit temporal separation:


Luke 21:24


“…until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”​

This verse alone establishes that the destruction of Jerusalem is not the end, but the beginning of a distinct era before the final consummation.
 
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Matthew 24:3
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?.../KJV

They ask 3 questions, and Jesus starts talking until

Matthew 24:31-32
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:.../KJV

Verse 31 is the last verse answering the disciples 3 questions and at that point Jesus is done answering them.
Verse 32 changes the subject. Jesus is on a roll and says hey let's talk about the rapture now and starts talking about it. In May 1948? Israel put forth leaves and became a nation again, and if you continue to read, he goes right into more about the rapture.
There are two questions and not three - how many question marks do you see?

The second question is a two-part question; nonetheless, it is a single question. And, the two parts are intrinsically tied together.

Don't just look at the Matthew account - look at the Mark account and the Luke account also. You need to look at all three accounts.

Can you find the change of subject in Matthew 24? ;)
If you will examine this web page:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Olivet_Discourse.html

- and take note of the comments in the last column - you may see there indications of when something changes and what kind of change it is.

The chart at the bottom of the page lists the events being talked about in chronological order.
 
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Most of the Bible believers can read and understand it. But there's a 1% amount of scripture that a believer can not understand without knowing the Greek language with its nuances. Matthew 24 is one of them. And what most people do is think that Rapture has to be post trib because of Matthew 24. But the disciples asked Jesus 3 questions and if you read it carefully you may see that Jesus finishes answering the 3 questions and then changes the subject to the rapture as an add on to their discussion. Jesus gets done talking about end times 2nd coming and starts talking about the rapture, which takes place before the great trib because the Bride of Christ is not appointed unto the wrath of God.

Can you find the change of subject in Matthew 24? ;)

I see a change from the GT being the wrath of satan to the false concept of it being the wrath of God. The Bride is subjected to the wrath of satan which is the trib, many being murdered and those that are still alive when it ends being changed then raptured and after that the wrath of God starting.
 
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Just Curious. What you said is good but how does Matthew chapter 24 fit into this? With all the persecution of Christians happening in Iran, China and N Korea, not to mention Minneapolis it’s spreading west. How do you explain Jesus words in Matthew 24 about false Christs and deception that even the elect can be deceived? Im not pounding you; im curious how all this fits together? And btw just a bit of interesting info I heard this morning… do you know that Iran has the largest number of Christians in the world right now?

But if you are dead you are dead. Persecution is its own issue.
 


It teaches people to not worry about the antichrist which is dangerous. The Ac, his lies and deceptions and false doctrines will cause the Apostasy and Pretrib teaches the Apostasy is just the departing/Rapture when it is actually Apostasy so it could affect one's salvation but only at the time the AC is here which is the time of the Apostasy.
 
I did not make this topic for me to debate, but feel free. I simply do not care.

I really, sincerely, want to know simply why one thinks it matters without going into weird long winded tangents.
If I am dead, I am dead. My salvation is not dependent on this topic.

I do not get the obsession.
 
It teaches people to not worry about the antichrist which is dangerous. The Ac, his lies and deceptions and false doctrines will cause the Apostasy and Pretrib teaches the Apostasy is just the departing/Rapture when it is actually Apostasy so it could affect one's salvation but only at the time the AC is here which is the time of the Apostasy.

How is being fooled going to make you lose salvation?
 
How is being fooled going to make you lose salvation?
There are a number of people on the forum who really do not know the power of God in their lives. They do not know God's promises so they live in fear. They do not know God's keeping power. They do not know His ability to keep us from falling. They believe that their salvation is dependent on how well they obey all the rules. It's pathetic. Even if we do suffer the great tribulation, the worst that can happen is we die. Anyone who has the slightest idea of God's word will refuse the mark of the beast.

Some like to make it far more complex than it is. Either we are born again or we are not. If we are born of God, we already have eternal life. The life of God cannot die. The life of Christ is indestructible. I rely on Jesus to keep me in His keeping power. He's done that in spite of my failures and defeats for 53 years.
 
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People who are obsessed with the timing of the Lord's appearing are walking in the flesh. It's not spiritual and doesn't demonstrate faith in the Lord; in my opinion.
 
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Why do some interesting groups of Christians care? If you are dead, you are dead. If you do not get the dates right, do you go to hell? If you are pre-trib, God hates you?

2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron.

2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

The new age movement that interprets the Bible and religions according to the occult and evolution, and people are going to evolve to be spiritual, and greater, and Jesus became an ascended master among others, and there is no personal God, but they honor the God of forces the power of the Cosmos, and the New Age Christ is the next world teacher.

The time will come that people will not want to hear the truth of the Bible but want to hear it according to the new age.

When the pre-trib does not happen it will overthrow the faith of some people and they will follow the new age.

Will a person that preaches pre-trib be held responsible.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

The saints will not be gathered unto Christ until the man of sin/ antichrist claims to be God which happen 3.5 years after he negotiates peace in the Middle East resulting in a 7 years peace treaty.

Then 3.5 years of tribulation.

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
Dan 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The beast makes war against the saints and overcomes them.

And they shall be given in to his hand for 3.5 years.

And when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people all things will be finished.

Which then comes the end when the Son shall deliver up the kingdom to God.

So it does matter if a person preaches pre-trib because it will overthrow the faith of some people.

When people say pre-trib they are thinking 7 years but the tribulation if for the last 3.5 years.

The first three and one half years salvation is still available to the world.

God is giving the world 7 years to have their way and go against the truth so He can end sin on earth.

So the saints will be on earth for they represent the truth.
 
How do you explain Jesus words in Matthew 24 about false Christs and deception that even the elect can be deceived?

And btw just a bit of interesting info I heard this morning… do you know that Iran has the largest number of Christians in the world right now?

The United States has the largest number of Christians globally, with over 200 million adherents, followed by Brazil, Mexico, and the Philippines, though nations like China could potentially surpass them in the future due to rapid growth.

Estimates for Iran's Christian population vary widely, from under 100,000 to over 1 million, largely differing between traditional (Armenian, Assyrian) and rapidly growing convert (Protestant/Evangelical) communities, with some surveys suggesting 1-1.5% (750,000-1.2 million) identifying as Christian, driven by significant growth in secret house churches despite intense government persecution and restrictions, including bans on Farsi services.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

It does not say the elect can be deceived.

But it says if it were possible they would be deceived which means it is not possible but the great signs and wonders will seem that real that will fool the world.