rapture cordial 'only' discussion

[Nehemiah6]

The answer is Revelation is a sealed book [in large part] just like Daniel was sealed to the Jews.

How can Revelation be a "sealed book" when it clearly shows that the seals were broken by Christ and then the events within those seals were described from Rev 4 to Rev 18?

Daniel was sealed until Revelation was written, but it is no longer sealed. Hence Christ said "let him who reads understand" when speaking of the Abomination of Desolation. That "abomination" is in fact an idol and an image of the Antichrist as noted in Revelation 13. And that image in the future temple will trigger the Great Tribulation.

Also, Christ said to John that "the time is an hand". Yet many assume that the events of the first five seals are in the future. But all one has to do is compare those events with what is described in the Olivet Discourse, and see that those events began immediately after Revelation was completed. For example, false messiahs (Christs) began to appear on the scene almost immediately, and have continued to do so. The Antichrist will be the ultimate false messiah

What is in the future are the events of the 6th and 7th seals.

 

[Evmur]

How can Revelation be a "sealed book" when it clearly shows that the seals were broken by Christ and then the events within those seals were described from Rev 4 to Rev 18?

Daniel was sealed until Revelation was written, but it is no longer sealed. Hence Christ said "let him who reads understand" when speaking of the Abomination of Desolation. That "abomination" is in fact an idol and an image of the Antichrist as noted in Revelation 13. And that image in the future temple will trigger the Great Tribulation.

Also, Christ said to John that "the time is an hand". Yet many assume that the events of the first five seals are in the future. But all one has to do is compare those events with what is described in the Olivet Discourse, and see that those events began immediately after Revelation was completed. For example, false messiahs (Christs) began to appear on the scene almost immediately, and have continued to do so. The Antichrist will be the ultimate false messiah

What is in the future are the events of the 6th and 7th seals.

everybody has their own understanding of the Revelation ...

The seals were opened after the shout of command "come up here" which some of us see as a picture of the rapture

... which is yet future

 

[Nehemiah6]

The seals were opened after the shout of command "come up here" which some of us see as a picture of the rapture

I have heard many say this. But the command was to only one individual. At the same time "come up here" is exactly what the Rapture is all about.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

Whether or not you understand this the doctrine as presented by your Berean Scholars are those expounded by John Nelson Darby

Precious friend, never 'studied' Darby, but my understanding is based, as
presented in Great GRACE Departure, By The Scriptures Rightly Divided.
I believe All The Scriptures [ pre-trib Mystery ] were From God, through
Paul [ not Darby/any man ], to me, to depart to heaven [ my Glorious hope ].

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ!” (online):

And, ALL The Scriptures, for Israel, were God's Prophetic Word to them, warning
of Judgment, and, then, At His Second Coming, He Will Save All Israel, and they
Will go into the earthly kingdom [ their Glorious hope ].

Of course, that part was just the 17th part Conclusion, summarizing the
previous 16 parts that I had developed [ without Darby/any man ], with
The Blessed Teacher, according to Bible study Rules!:

In case you may wish to check into these, let me know, in this
Outline:

(1A) Peace With God! "Receiving" The Holy Spirit For "understanding"?
(1B) 1A "E - X - P - A - N - D - E - D" For Further "Clarification"?

(2a) Which Bible: AV or, Any "newer modern version" will suffice?
(2b) AV And God's Excellent "study" Rules!?

(3a) God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided! - "Brief" Introduction...
(3b) Three "Ages" Rightly Divided! = God's Timelines?

(4) Which "Gospel!" Makes Way For Which "Gospel"?

(5) Great Tribulation? or, *tribulations/Great Grace Departure!?*

(6) Pre-TOJT Grace Departure "Expectations!"?

(7) God's Heavenly UPlook For His Body!?

(8) Watching, Waiting, And Looking for Whom! or, "signs"?

(9) He "who withholdeth/hindereth" Until "taken Out!?"

(10) "Day Of Christ!" Rightly
Divided from {RDf}: "The Day Of The LORD"?

(11) Confidence in death/resurrection!, Or, in living/glorification!!?

(12) Christ Will Return "Without Warning!"?

(13) The Two "Trumps" Of God!, In His "Age Of Grace!"?

(14) Meeting Him "In The Air!" to Heaven!! vs

U-turn ( theology? ) Back To earth?​

(15) Preparation For Judgment!?

(16) Post Departure "Deception! Question"?
-----------------------------------------

Precious friend, thanks again - I have Greatly appreciated this
cordial / respectful discussion about God's Important Matters!

As always, please Be Very Richly Encouraged and Edified
In Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided!

 

[Evmur]

Precious friend, never 'studied' Darby, but my understanding is based, as
presented in Great GRACE Departure, By The Scriptures Rightly Divided.
I believe All The Scriptures [ pre-trib Mystery ] were From God, through
Paul [ not Darby/any man ], to me, to depart to heaven [ my Glorious hope ].

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ!” (online):

And, ALL The Scriptures, for Israel, were God's Prophetic Word to them, warning
of Judgment, and, then, At His Second Coming, He Will Save All Israel, and they
Will go into the earthly kingdom [ their Glorious hope ].

Of course, that part was just the 17th part Conclusion, summarizing the
previous 16 parts that I had developed [ without Darby/any man ], with
The Blessed Teacher, according to Bible study Rules!:

In case you may wish to check into these, let me know, in this
Outline:

(1A) Peace With God! "Receiving" The Holy Spirit For "understanding"?
(1B) 1A "E - X - P - A - N - D - E - D" For Further "Clarification"?

(2a) Which Bible: AV or, Any "newer modern version" will suffice?
(2b) AV And God's Excellent "study" Rules!?

(3a) God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided! - "Brief" Introduction...
(3b) Three "Ages" Rightly Divided! = God's Timelines?

(4) Which "Gospel!" Makes Way For Which "Gospel"?

(5) Great Tribulation? or, *tribulations/Great Grace Departure!?*

(6) Pre-TOJT Grace Departure "Expectations!"?

(7) God's Heavenly UPlook For His Body!?

(8) Watching, Waiting, And Looking for Whom! or, "signs"?

(9) He "who withholdeth/hindereth" Until "taken Out!?"

(10) "Day Of Christ!" Rightly
Divided from {RDf}: "The Day Of The LORD"?

(11) Confidence in death/resurrection!, Or, in living/glorification!!?

(12) Christ Will Return "Without Warning!"?

(13) The Two "Trumps" Of God!, In His "Age Of Grace!"?

(14) Meeting Him "In The Air!" to Heaven!! vs

U-turn ( theology? ) Back To earth?​

(15) Preparation For Judgment!?

(16) Post Departure "Deception! Question"?
-----------------------------------------

Precious friend, thanks again - I have Greatly appreciated this
cordial / respectful discussion about God's Important Matters!

As always, please Be Very Richly Encouraged and Edified
In Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided!

View attachment 259396

I have to say we are talking to each other along parallel lines. "things that differ" I may affectionately tell you are our understanding in these important matters.

Nobody of any note preached pre-tribulation rapture before Darby

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

Nobody of any note preached pre-tribulation rapture before Darby

Cordially and respectFULLY Disagree :

Paul, our apostle of Grace, preached Christ According To The Revelation Of The
Mystery, Which Closes With our Great GRACE Departure, before God's Prophetic
Judgment Begins.
+
Borrowed from 'part 8' of my 17-part study:

We, The Body Of Christ, are Specifically taught, By him, to, by faith, be "looking,
patiently waiting, and watching For our Blessed Hope, Christ The Holy One!
(2 Thessalonians 2:1; Romans 8:18-19; Romans 8:23; Romans 8:25;
1 Corinthians 1:7; Ephesians 6:12-18; Philippians 3:20; Colossians 4:1-3;
1 Thessalonians 1:10; 1 Thessalonians 5:5-11; Titus 2:13 AV)

Not "for The Wicked one", as [ a 'Noted one' ] Paul's Expectation Was our
"Gathering Unto Christ" Was Imminent in his day and ours, by his own
statement:

"we which are alive and remain" (1Th 4:17), including or excluding himself?​

Plus, 'noted one' Paul taught us "...we walk by faith, not by sight..." (2Co 5:7)
+

"But if we hope for That we see not, then do​

we with patience wait for It." (Romans 8:25)​

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ!” (online):

to Israel, "Jews looking for signs!" Sight, Correct?:

While, on the other hand, in prophecy, Christ taught Israel, specifically
to be watching for the "abomination of desolation" [ The Wicked one ]
and "the signs of the times" when their "redemption draweth nigh":

And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars;​

and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and​

the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking​

after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of​

heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man​

coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these ​

things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads;​

for your redemption draweth nigh." (Luke 21:25-28)​

Again, only Confusion results when Mixing Up prophecy and The Mystery!
-------------------------------------
Thus, I believe Paul was "of note," Chosen By Christ, long before Darby.

Amen.

 

[PaulThomson]

That is ok.

Jew and Gentile are not recognised in the church but one new man. And we all will go to meet the Lord in the air when He comes. BUT.

There is still Jews, nobody considers them, the devil is very interested in them.

They are the seed of Abraham too, according to the flesh. They are not the church but they are the seed of Abraham and God has made promises to them, to them is promised the ends of the earth. We are promised heaven, we are not promised to inherit the earth.

ALL THE PROMISES OF GOD are amen and yea IN CHRIST.
And IN HIM there is neither Jew nor Gentile.
How can there be one set of promises for Jews in Christ and another set of promises for non-Jews in Christ.

 

[Mem]

To the Jew first, except at the end, where they are second?

 

[Evmur]

ALL THE PROMISES OF GOD are amen and yea IN CHRIST.
And IN HIM there is neither Jew nor Gentile.
How can there be one set of promises for Jews in Christ and another set of promises for non-Jews in Christ.

Firstly because the whole nation of Israel will be raised when Christ comes according with Ezekiel's vision of dry bones and Daniel's prophecy in chapter 9. Secondly they will be converted when they shall look upon Him whom they have pierced and God will pour out upon them a spirit of compassion and supplication. But they will not be raptured with the church. They will reign on earth with Christ.

Nobody receives ought but through Christ.

 

[Evmur]

Cordially and respectFULLY Disagree :

Paul, our apostle of Grace, preached Christ According To The Revelation Of The
Mystery, Which Closes With our Great GRACE Departure, before God's Prophetic
Judgment Begins.
+
Borrowed from 'part 8' of my 17-part study:

We, The Body Of Christ, are Specifically taught, By him, to, by faith, be "looking,
patiently waiting, and watching For our Blessed Hope, Christ The Holy One!
(2 Thessalonians 2:1; Romans 8:18-19; Romans 8:23; Romans 8:25;
1 Corinthians 1:7; Ephesians 6:12-18; Philippians 3:20; Colossians 4:1-3;
1 Thessalonians 1:10; 1 Thessalonians 5:5-11; Titus 2:13 AV)

Not "for The Wicked one", as [ a 'Noted one' ] Paul's Expectation Was our
"Gathering Unto Christ" Was Imminent in his day and ours, by his own
statement:

"we which are alive and remain" (1Th 4:17), including or excluding himself?​

Plus, 'noted one' Paul taught us "...we walk by faith, not by sight..." (2Co 5:7)
+

"But if we hope for That we see not, then do​

we with patience wait for It." (Romans 8:25)​

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ!” (online):

to Israel, "Jews looking for signs!" Sight, Correct?:

While, on the other hand, in prophecy, Christ taught Israel, specifically
to be watching for the "abomination of desolation" [ The Wicked one ]
and "the signs of the times" when their "redemption draweth nigh":

And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars;​

and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and​

the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking​

after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of​

heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man​

coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these ​

things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads;​

for your redemption draweth nigh." (Luke 21:25-28)​

Again, only Confusion results when Mixing Up prophecy and The Mystery!
-------------------------------------
Thus, I believe Paul was "of note," Chosen By Christ, long before Darby.

Amen.

Ah engagement.
I see that Paul's gospel ends with our gathering to meet the Lord but I dispute that tribulation, the great tribulation is God's prophetic judgement or God's wrath.

They shall deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, in the world you will have tribulation. Paul teaches "through great tribulation must we enter the k9ingdom of God"

Tribulation comes from man, from the world. The great tribulation is the great end-time persecution we are warned will come.

Whether we are in peace or in persecution [perhaps even more so] we will be watching and waiting and looking for our Lord.
"He is imminent" so is the Antichrist imminent. Antichrist arrives first chronologically, He [Paul tells us] will oppose everything called god or that is worshipped as god. That is a program of systematic eradication, he will set himself to destroy all religion ... we have seen his types.

When he has to all intents finished that job he will march into the temple to declare himself that he is God. and there meet His end.

All this must happen before the coming of the Lord.

I say this

When our Lord was speaking generally to the people He is addressing the Jews, but on those occasions when He is speaking to His disciples [as at Olivet] His message is to the church.

 

[Kroogz]

Cordially and respectFULLY Disagree :

Paul, our apostle of Grace, preached Christ According To The Revelation Of The
Mystery, Which Closes With our Great GRACE Departure, before God's Prophetic
Judgment Begins.
+
Borrowed from 'part 8' of my 17-part study:

We, The Body Of Christ, are Specifically taught, By him, to, by faith, be "looking,
patiently waiting, and watching For our Blessed Hope, Christ The Holy One!
(2 Thessalonians 2:1; Romans 8:18-19; Romans 8:23; Romans 8:25;
1 Corinthians 1:7; Ephesians 6:12-18; Philippians 3:20; Colossians 4:1-3;
1 Thessalonians 1:10; 1 Thessalonians 5:5-11; Titus 2:13 AV)

Not "for The Wicked one", as [ a 'Noted one' ] Paul's Expectation Was our
"Gathering Unto Christ" Was Imminent in his day and ours, by his own
statement:

"we which are alive and remain" (1Th 4:17), including or excluding himself?​

Plus, 'noted one' Paul taught us "...we walk by faith, not by sight..." (2Co 5:7)
+

"But if we hope for That we see not, then do​

we with patience wait for It." (Romans 8:25)​

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ!” (online):

to Israel, "Jews looking for signs!" Sight, Correct?:

While, on the other hand, in prophecy, Christ taught Israel, specifically
to be watching for the "abomination of desolation" [ The Wicked one ]
and "the signs of the times" when their "redemption draweth nigh":

And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars;​

and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and​

the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking​

after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of​

heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man​

coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these ​

things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads;​

for your redemption draweth nigh." (Luke 21:25-28)​

Again, only Confusion results when Mixing Up prophecy and The Mystery!
-------------------------------------
Thus, I believe Paul was "of note," Chosen By Christ, long before Darby.

Amen.

I will keep it simple brother, I promise! Have you ever looked into the original language and its definitions on "a fallen away" in 2 Thes 2:3?

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away(the departure) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

"a falling away" is a NOUN with the definite article THE. So it is an event. The departure. Read that 4 or 5 times and just look how that fits in the context of what Paul was saying.

Strong's Concordance

apostasia: defection, revolt​

Original Word: ἀποστασία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apostasia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah)
Definition: defection, revolt
Usage: defection, apostasy, revolt.
HELPS Word-studies
646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."

 

[Evmur]

Ah engagement.
I see that Paul's gospel ends with our gathering to meet the Lord but I dispute that tribulation, the great tribulation is God's prophetic judgement or God's wrath.

They shall deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, in the world you will have tribulation. Paul teaches "through great tribulation must we enter the k9ingdom of God"

Tribulation comes from man, from the world. The great tribulation is the great end-time persecution we are warned will come.

Whether we are in peace or in persecution [perhaps even more so] we will be watching and waiting and looking for our Lord.
"He is imminent" so is the Antichrist imminent. Antichrist arrives first chronologically, He [Paul tells us] will oppose everything called god or that is worshipped as god. That is a program of systematic eradication, he will set himself to destroy all religion ... we have seen his types.

When he has to all intents finished that job he will march into the temple to declare himself that he is God. and there meet His end.

All this must happen before the coming of the Lord.

I say this

When our Lord was speaking generally to the people He is addressing the Jews, but on those occasions when He is speaking to His disciples [as at Olivet] His message is to the church.

To the Jew first, except at the end, where they are second?

I've allus mused upon that one, it is what is called a circular statement. if they was 1st now they are last, if they are now last they will be 1st ... and so on.

 

[Mem]

I've allus mused upon that one, it is what is called a circular statement. if they was 1st now they are last, if they are now last they will be 1st ... and so on.

Ok, that's where that idea comes from! /ahhhm soolll
I'll have to look up whether the terminology is expressed in either ordinal or cardinal terms. thank you.