Random Questions; Bible-based answers

[Eli1]

Cool! It was easier getting agreement among us three regarding that than on the kerygma!

I hope that Trump's success will pave the way for him to force Democrat mayors to do the same in their cities.
The biggest question I have (having a mentally ill homeless relative), is what should we do with those folks.

Any ideas/suggestions?

Well, we should help the ones who are going through any illness.
I guess this goes back to whatever each state can choose to do?
Here in Mass there are many programs available to help people with illness and there’s a state provided health insurance called MassHealth which is given to anyone with residency in Mass where you need to show proof that you live at a particular address and prove it with a utility bill or something like that.
So, people don’t have to worry about bills when they’re dealing with an illness. Between MassHealth and Medicaid , people end up paying $5 for prescriptions at CVS.

 

[GWH]

Well, we should help the ones who are going through any illness.
I guess this goes back to whatever each state can choose to do?
Here in Mass there are many programs available to help people with illness and there’s a state provided health insurance called MassHealth which is given to anyone with residency in Mass where you need to show proof that you live at a particular address and prove it with a utility bill or something like that.
So, people don’t have to worry about bills when they’re dealing with an illness. Between MassHealth and Medicaid , people end up paying $5 for prescriptions at CVS.

I agree that affordable health care is good and that governments should help where privately provided health care is lacking,
but is there a limit on how much to provide each individual so that the cost does not bankrupt the program?

Also, do you have any ideas about mental health and how to help the homeless due to mental illness?

 

[Meatbag]

All mental health issues like that go back to some kinda preoccupation with the self, for homeless it's easy to see how connection to others has broken down..
It's difficult for society to spend the time on each person to get back to that original wound or trauma and fix it
That should come about through healthy relationships with others, knowledge of Christ etc

That first question way back there about other life on planets etc grabbed me
I don't think it works like that, and the Bible as far as I can tell, doesn't indicate physical life on other planets
There's a verse in Obadiah, iirc, 1:4
Though you exalt yourself as the eagle
And make your nest among the stars
From there I will bring you down
Saith The Lord
..I think the nest among the stars there would refer to something like Abraham's seed being typed as stars, not literal stars or planets
Offhand,
There's a nice correlation to celestial bodies & resurrected bodies in NT somewhere.. I think the "mentally ill" just temporarily lose sight of all this stuff

Nice thread

 

[GWH]

All mental health issues like that go back to some kinda preoccupation with the self, for homeless it's easy to see how connection to others has broken down..
It's difficult for society to spend the time on each person to get back to that original wound or trauma and fix it
That should come about through healthy relationships with others, knowledge of Christ etc

That first question way back there about other life on planets etc grabbed me
I don't think it works like that, and the Bible as far as I can tell, doesn't indicate physical life on other planets
There's a verse in Obadiah, iirc, 1:4
Though you exalt yourself as the eagle
And make your nest among the stars
From there I will bring you down
Saith The Lord
..I think the nest among the stars there would refer to something like Abraham's seed being typed as stars, not literal stars or planets
Offhand,
There's a nice correlation to celestial bodies & resurrected bodies in NT somewhere.. I think the "mentally ill" just temporarily lose sight of all this stuff

Nice thread

Glad you like the thread, Meatbag. Feel free to ask RQs.
Regarding extra-terrestrial life, I agree that the Bible indicates the universe was created for humanity.
Regarding mental health, the person I know is a paranoiac schizophrenic transgender Christian, wandering around the universe.

 

[Suze]

Cool! It was easier getting agreement among us three regarding that than on the kerygma!

I hope that Trump's success will pave the way for him to force Democrat mayors to do the same in their cities.
The biggest question I have (having a mentally ill homeless relative), is what should we do with those folks.

Any ideas/suggestions?

Assess them , provide whatever help they need , rehab , therapy , medication , somewhere safe to live and a support system . Think of all the jobs this would create ! These people r obviously very vulnerable , if they weren't they would have jobs and homes wouldn't they ? As Jesus said , we will always have the poor and we must help them .
If a person feels isolated , inadequate and as if no one cares for them , they loose their self respect , especially if they are forced to exist like an animal . Once that happens , they can start to not care about themselves and if that happens , why should they care about anyone else ?
There's a very good book about this sort of thing by Cormac McCarthy , it's called Child of God , they made a decent film based on the book if u r not the reading kind . Ask ourselves , what would Jesus do ? What does he expect us to do ? There's the answer .

 

[GWH]

Assess them , provide whatever help they need , rehab , therapy , medication , somewhere safe to live and a support system . Think of all the jobs this would create ! These people r obviously very vulnerable , if they weren't they would have jobs and homes wouldn't they ? As Jesus said , we will always have the poor and we must help them .
If a person feels isolated , inadequate and as if no one cares for them , they loose their self respect , especially if they are forced to exist like an animal . Once that happens , they can start to not care about themselves and if that happens , why should they care about anyone else ?
There's a very good book about this sort of thing by Cormac McCarthy , it's called Child of God , they made a decent film based on the book if u r not the reading kind . Ask ourselves , what would Jesus do ? What does he expect us to do ? There's the answer .

I appreciate your reply, and I agree in principle, but using my relative as an example, he doesn't want rehab, medication or therapy. He mainly wants money to supplement his food stamps and about $1,000 per month from Social Security to help with motel bills as he either gets kicked out or gets paranoid that people are trying to poison him and moves on with his cartful of possessions. A book or movie about his 82 years of "life" would probably be a best-seller, and the royalties from such would solve his financial needs--but how to make that happen? We are amazed that he has survived this long. Deciding WWJD requires the wisdom of Solomon. What does McCarthy's Child of God suggest?

 

[Eli1]

I agree that affordable health care is good and that governments should help where privately provided health care is lacking,
but is there a limit on how much to provide each individual so that the cost does not bankrupt the program?

Also, do you have any ideas about mental health and how to help the homeless due to mental illness?

The programs in mental health are very extensive in my state too.
A bit too much for my personal opinion but I think this part has a lot to do with the person themselves so it’s a difficult topic to discuss simply on text.
But the programs here exist to help people with different issues and again, at an almost free cost for the patient.

 

[Suze]

I appreciate your reply, and I agree in principle, but using my relative as an example, he doesn't want rehab, medication or therapy. He mainly wants money to supplement his food stamps and about $1,000 per month from Social Security to help with motel bills as he either gets kicked out or gets paranoid that people are trying to poison him and moves on with his cartful of possessions. A book or movie about his 82 years of "life" would probably be a best-seller, and the royalties from such would solve his financial needs--but how to make that happen? We are amazed that he has survived this long. Deciding WWJD requires the wisdom of Solomon. What does McCarthy's Child of God suggest?

I will tell u if u r not going to read it , briefly , it's the story of a small rural community , mostly not rich but not poor either , God fearing Christians . There r a few poor misfits on the edges . One of them is very mentally ill and literally starving and freezing to death . He gets on everyone's nerves for a variety of reasons . They keep sending the local sheriff out into the woods to find him and castigate him about his behaviour . Not one of these ' good folks ' lifts a finger to help him . Eventually he looses the plot and does a few things that really annoys the community . That's it in a nut shell but it's very good and a savage endightment of the so called ' good folks ' , a powerful book and not a bad film . Can recommend both . Cormac McCarthy is an excellent writer but , one of the most depressing ones I have ever read , he makes John Steinbeck look like a comedy act .

 

[Suze]

I appreciate your reply, and I agree in principle, but using my relative as an example, he doesn't want rehab, medication or therapy. He mainly wants money to supplement his food stamps and about $1,000 per month from Social Security to help with motel bills as he either gets kicked out or gets paranoid that people are trying to poison him and moves on with his cartful of possessions. A book or movie about his 82 years of "life" would probably be a best-seller, and the royalties from such would solve his financial needs--but how to make that happen? We are amazed that he has survived this long. Deciding WWJD requires the wisdom of Solomon. What does McCarthy's Child of God suggest?

He's 82 ! Wow ! Some one has been looking after him , don't u think ?

 

[Suze]

I appreciate your reply, and I agree in principle, but using my relative as an example, he doesn't want rehab, medication or therapy. He mainly wants money to supplement his food stamps and about $1,000 per month from Social Security to help with motel bills as he either gets kicked out or gets paranoid that people are trying to poison him and moves on with his cartful of possessions. A book or movie about his 82 years of "life" would probably be a best-seller, and the royalties from such would solve his financial needs--but how to make that happen? We are amazed that he has survived this long. Deciding WWJD requires the wisdom of Solomon. What does McCarthy's Child of God suggest?

My own step sister , one year younger than me and the daughter of my mum's second husband , suffers from paranoid schizophrenia and without meds she is definitely a danger to herself and potentially others . Because we have the NHS in britain , she has had good health care , access to the appropriate drugs , a psychiatrist and plenty of other support , because of this she has been able to lead a relatively normal life . She got married to a sane man with a good job who is able to support her , she brought a lovely young man into the world who is a very useful member of society , she has been a good wife and a great mum and she still is both . Without this support she would have certainly been dead or in jail for a serious offense . We have to remember that these people r not all the same , so they cannot b treated all the same . They r all individuals with complex and different needs that will require complex and varied help . With that help many of them could b happy and productive members of society . Without help they will b their own worst enemies and may harm others not just themselves . We ignore the vulnerable at our own peril , I ask again , what would Jesus do ? What would he have us do ?

 

[GWH]

The programs in mental health are very extensive in my state too.
A bit too much for my personal opinion but I think this part has a lot to do with the person themselves so it’s a difficult topic to discuss simply on text.
But the programs here exist to help people with different issues and again, at an almost free cost for the patient.

So, does this mean you have no homeless people camping in the parks and no crime?

 

[GWH]

My own step sister , one year younger than me and the daughter of my mum's second husband , suffers from paranoid schizophrenia and without meds she is definitely a danger to herself and potentially others . Because we have the NHS in britain , she has had good health care , access to the appropriate drugs , a psychiatrist and plenty of other support , because of this she has been able to lead a relatively normal life . She got married to a sane man with a good job who is able to support her , she brought a lovely young man into the world who is a very useful member of society , she has been a good wife and a great mum and she still is both . Without this support she would have certainly been dead or in jail for a serious offense . We have to remember that these people r not all the same , so they cannot b treated all the same . They r all individuals with complex and different needs that will require complex and varied help . With that help many of them could b happy and productive members of society . Without help they will b their own worst enemies and may harm others not just themselves . We ignore the vulnerable at our own peril , I ask again , what would Jesus do ? What would he have us do ?

Well, based on your reply I think Jesus would have me ask the names of the drugs that were helpful, because perhaps new drugs are now available that my relative could be persuaded to try, if he can be convinced they aren't oisonous and don't have the same dulling side effects as what he took 40 years ago. Unfortunately, it is too late for having a sane spouse as support and the US has no health care for such people because it is too expensive. Perhaps we will be able to afford it when we dig out of the $35 trillion debt hole we are in thanks to decades of corrupt politicians blowing money on three losing long term wars.

 

[NightTwister]

All mental health issues like that go back to some kinda preoccupation with the self

A huge over-simplification. There are real medical reasons for some mental health issues. Many of the homeless are former military members who suffer from the effects of PTSD. I could go on, but to just say, "get over yourself" isn't really a solution.

 

[GWH]

A huge over-simplification. There are real medical reasons for some mental health issues. Many of the homeless are former military members who suffer from the effects of PTSD. I could go on, but to just say, "get over yourself" isn't really a solution.

I agree that mental disease is a physical disease like cancer, and although all disease may be caused by sin in some way,
like the sin of pollution it may be due to familial and societal accumulations of sins as much as to the fault of individuals.
Thus, like the cause, the cure is complicated, so platitudes are too simplistic.

Again, even though he is looney and sinful he is a Christian, attends church as much as possible, taught himself to read the Bible
in the original languages--and got castrated to lower his libido (like Origen I think?)!

I sympathize with my relative, because I am aware that many or even most psych drugs merely depress the undesired activity
rather than cure it, often with side effects that also are problematic.

 

[Eli1]

So, does this mean you have no homeless people camping in the parks and no crime?

There are homeless here and there is crime. This isn’t utopia.

But for the people who are homeless, I think this is something that I would consider as some kind of addiction because the resources are available to them if they want to take it.
One way to summarize this was when I saw a patient at a hospital being treated for cancer.
He was in his 50-60s I’m guessing.
A group of doctors and nurses were in his treatment chair and talking to him to stop smoking and drinking while on chemo treatment. They were also asking him for any of his family members.
He didn’t care what they were saying.
He wanted to die basically.
Some people don’t want help or to be helped.

 

[GWH]

There are homeless here and there is crime. This isn’t utopia.

But for the people who are homeless, I think this is something that I would consider as some kind of addiction because the resources are available to them if they want to take it.
One way to summarize this was when I saw a patient at a hospital being treated for cancer.
He was in his 50-60s I’m guessing.
A group of doctors and nurses were in his treatment chair and talking to him to stop smoking and drinking while on chemo treatment. They were also asking him for any of his family members.
He didn’t care what they were saying.
He wanted to die basically.
Some people don’t want help or to be helped.

Oh, well it sounded like utopia the way you were talking about it.
Yes, a big part of the problem based on my relative's case is that they prefer to pollute utopia rather than be cured of addiction.
I do think this is due to a death wish, which causes a downward spiral that can last for years--82 so far in his case.
What I want is for such people to be forced to dry out and be taken care of compassionately in a mental institution,
so that our cities could become a little more utopian in that regard as we also put sane criminals in penal institutions.

 

[GWH]

Oh, well it sounded like utopia the way you were talking about it.
Yes, a big part of the problem based on my relative's case is that they prefer to pollute utopia rather than be cured of addiction.
I do think this is due to a death wish, which causes a downward spiral that can last for years--82 so far in his case.
What I want is for such people to be forced to dry out and be taken care of compassionately in a mental institution,
so that our cities could become a little more utopian in that regard as we also put sane criminals in penal institutions.

I see that you agree with my desires regarding pollution of society.
I am in the process of sharing my ideas for our penal system on the Applying GW to Politics thread,
but does anyone want to help develop a similar outline for mental institutions?
If so, feel free to share now either here or on the Politics thread.
Thanks!

 

[Eli1]

I see that you agree with my desires regarding pollution of society.
I am in the process of sharing my ideas for our penal system on the Applying GW to Politics thread,
but does anyone want to help develop a similar outline for mental institutions?
If so, feel free to share now either here or on the Politics thread.
Thanks!

I do agree with your idea to have the criminal 'pay' or work for the family they did harm to.
This type of thing has existed in a few other cultures in the past too.
Not sure how applicable this idea would be now especially in a modern day and age where people might want swift justice.
And sometimes that 'swift' justice can take decades because some inmates have been in death row for 20+ years.
So i like and agree with your idea.

 

[Meatbag]

Hi NightTwister
Yeah, I get you.. I like to keep things simple
but you gotta admit in no way did I even infer "just get over it"
Sorry if I came across harsh
I try to help others and not judge...

I remember wandering around the universe, as OP puts it..
Wisdom stands in the gates shouting but noone listens
Not the best situation but teaches people what they need to know

 

[GWH]

I see that you agree with my desires regarding pollution of society.
I am in the process of sharing my ideas for our penal system on the Applying GW to Politics thread,
but does anyone want to help develop a similar outline for mental institutions?
If so, feel free to share now either here or on the Politics thread.
Thanks!

Okay, here is my first post attempting to answer the question, How should we help the mentally ill?

I will begin by noting what Eli said in #621 and Suze said in #625 combined with the example of my homeless relative,
who doesn't want rehab, medication or therapy but only money for motels and food stamps for Walmart as he either gets kicked out or gets paranoid that people are trying to poison him and moves around the country with his cartful of possessions. Other ideas are welcomed.

I see two main problems: 1. Helping takes money, and 2. The homeless don't want help other than money.
However, regarding #1, I would ask Eli whether Mass. is a model, and regarding #2, I would ask Suze whether she is willing to force vagrants to accept "whatever help they need , rehab , therapy , medication , somewhere safe to live and a support system".

I would be willing to pay higher taxes to pay for mental health institutions (probably privately owned and operated but monitored for quality control by governmental agencies) that would provide efficiency apartments for the homeless, who would be required to be domiciled there rather than be allowed to sleep in the streets or parks. Those unwilling to cooperate with this plan would need to be institutionalized (incarcerated).

In figuring out the cost of this plan, the cost of allowing vagrancy needs to be properly assessed, perhaps comparable to figuring out
the cost of allowing pollution or of utilizing wind turbines. My guess is that the Dems would waste money and enrich themselves,
but Trump might do a competent and compassionate job in this area as he is attempting to do in many others--just one more thing on his 24/7 plate!

What do y'all think?