Question for those who believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture

[homwardbound]

You are devoted to an end time apocalypse because you have invested so much time and energy trying to synchronize every single jot and tittle, you have lost sight of the forest for the trees.
You have also lost sight of the cross. Not redemptively personally, but it's purpose in God's plan to fill the earth with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord. The cross, and all that accompanied it, is the central event of all of history. After the fall, nearly all the OT points to it, the gospels reveal it imminency, and the rest of the NT speaks to the ramifications of it. The whole spiritual power structure was changed. The gospels themselves predict it. Satan is cast from heaven...Luke 10:18...and Jesus speaks of building His church in which the powers of hell are impotent to halt...Matthew 16:18. Not too many days hence, Jesus, with newfound authority and power, commissions the building of said church...Matthew 28:19-20. And later, in Revelation 1, Jesus appears with 2 new keys on His key chain.

In coming and dying, Jesus reversed the course of history. The cross destroyed the works of Satan by rendering him impotent to stop the restoration of all things. And history, post cross, is a continual restoration of all things in and by Christ...1 Corinthians 15:23-28.

If you trace both history, and redemptive history, this can be easily shown. And I'll be glad to walk you through it, if that interests you. But history will continue to build to a time when the knowledge of the glory of the Lord shall fill the earth.

Love your post this says to me
A before the cross, have to get forgiven to be loved and accepted by God, win others easily accept anyone. Not saying I do not accept anyone, saying I am being made wise as a serpent and remaining harmless as a dove, thanks to God in God's done works of Son first, wow!
After the cross, we are forgiven, reconciled, forever in Father and Son as Won for us to be in and now doing the done work of Son given us us to do in the resurrected Christ, resurrected by Father, wow, woe is me to believe and see, this love and mercy pour out of me, wow as in Isaiah 6:1-7

 

[homwardbound]

One thing I will say in relation to your statements is that Gentiles are not grafted into Israel, but into Christ:

Thank you for that correction

 

[TommyT]

Are you not familiar that the parable of the ten virgins was spoken to ISRAEL? The Church did not even exist yet. Are you intentionally ignoring the fact that the Gospel message at that time did not even include the crucifixion of Christ, and His resurrection?

No, if anyone is misleading anyone else, it is the idea that Christ will marry His own Body. Pure nonsense. You're ignoring the fact that the LORD was ALREADY MARRIED to Israel. I would not be so quick to lay claim to believing that Christ is going to marry His own Body, which is a concept expressed nowhere in scripture, but is a concocted doctrine from the pits of Sheol.

That replacement theology nonsense to which you're pointing, it's just a doctrine of demons that really needs to be reconsidered by all who profess Christ Jesus. An as Israeli, I can say boldly that its pure, offensive garbage that is a creation and furtherance from wicked men like Augustine, Calvin, Luther and the like.

MM

======

MM,

The Old Testament and Old Covenant was the foundation that the New Testament was built on, where Jesus would become Savior and establish the New Covenant.

I am not going to debate your BS, with comments such as "Christ is going to marry His own body".

The terms "bridegroom", "bride" and marriage" are all alegorical terms used to deeply explain that Jesus will be accepting and recieving ALL of His own (Jew or Gentile) into the Kingdom of God, in case you missed that.

 

[Genez]

Back to the original question---are the dead raised same time as the living? in a pre-tribulation rapture?

And just how many comings do you see?

There is confusion about terms.
Not raised...

Lazarus was 'raised' from the dead, only to die again.
Lazarus was not resurrected.
He was brought back to life in his original body, and it died again later on.

In the Rapture?
Not simply was raised, but, 'resurrected!'

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. ​

The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; ​

and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. ​

Do you believe this?” John 11:25-26​

Jesus is the Resurrection firstfruits!
The Resurrection has not taken place yet.
But, some in the past had been raised from the dead.

In the Rapture?
Dead in Christ shall rise first speaks of the same way Jesus was raised from the dead in HIS RESURRECTION!
For we will have a body just like His glorious body when that takes place!
Fir resurrected will be those who died before the Rapture. Gathered together, and brought to the clouds above
the earth... And, as they watch we who are alive will be caught up and transformed into the same body as Jesus
has, right before their perfect resurrection eyes!

I have no idea why some wish to be a killjoy and attack the glory of the Rapture.
But, that's their business (and cynicism) that they never worked out before the Lord.

In Christ.... grace and peace

 

[TommyT]

There is confusion about terms.
Not raised...

Lazarus was 'raised' from the dead, only to die again.
Lazarus was not resurrected.
He was brought back to life in his original body, and it died again later on.

In the Rapture?
Not simply was raised, but, 'resurrected!'

​

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. ​

The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; ​

and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. ​

Do you believe this?” John 11:25-26​

Jesus is the Resurrection firstfruits!
The Resurrection has not taken place yet.
But, some in the past had been raised from the dead.

In the Rapture?
Dead in Christ shall rise first speaks of the same way Jesus was raised from the dead in HIS RESURRECTION!
For we will have a body just like His glorious body when that takes place!
Fir resurrected will be those who died before the Rapture. Gathered together, and brought to the clouds above
the earth... And, as they watch we who are alive will be caught up and transformed into the same body as Jesus
has, right before their perfect resurrection eyes!

I have no idea why some wish to be a killjoy and attack the glory of the Rapture.
But, that's their business (and cynicism) that they never worked out before the Lord.

In Christ.... grace and peace

===========

To clarify "the dead" for those who may not understand...

It is the "dead in Christ" who will be raised during the Rapture. The dead who were "spiritually dead" will remain and be raised later for the Great White Throne Judgment, who will go on to be separated from God for eternity.

 

[Musicmaster]

======

MM,

The Old Testament and Old Covenant was the foundation that the New Testament was built on, where Jesus would become Savior and establish the New Covenant.

I am not going to debate your BS, with comments such as "Christ is going to marry His own body".

The terms "bridegroom", "bride" and marriage" are all alegorical terms used to deeply explain that Jesus will be accepting and recieving ALL of His own (Jew or Gentile) into the Kingdom of God, in case you missed that.

I hate to see you using foul allusions in language to what I said, and so will leave you to your own devices.

MM

 

[Genez]

One thing I will say in relation to your statements is that Gentiles are not grafted into Israel, but into Christ:

John 15:1-5
1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Isn't that wonderful?

MM

Yes...
Gentiles have been grafted into the same position as that was once solely held by the Jews for blessings and prosperity from God.
Gentiles do not become Jews when they believe. And, both Jews and Gentiles become the one New Man when either believes in
the Son of God, Jesus Christ.

There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave
nor free, nor is there male and female, for you
are all one in Christ Jesus.! Galatians 3:28

Jews and Gentiles who believe in Jesus Christ become the one new man in Christ!

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:
The old has gone, the new is here! 2 Corinthians 5:17

It was just that the Jews, because of their past history with God, had already known the way of morality under the Law. Jews who believed found it an easy adaption as they entered into the new life in Christ The Gentiles on the other hand, needed to be grafted in and needed to learn a new way of life for them.. Prior to then, most Gentiles were living what the Jews saw as immoral lives. That was one reason the Jews had looked down upon the "goyim."

But. its not been that way since the Church went into the world and transformed Gentiles into living moral lives with virtue like the Jews had. Yes... the Gentiles had been a raunchy bunch until God got a hold on them! They needed to be grafted in to a way of life.
That is why today in America we refer to ourslves as a Judio Christian culture.

Having fun yet? Grace and peace ..........

 

[Genez]

===========

To clarify "the dead" for those who may not understand...

It is the "dead in Christ" who will be raised during the Rapture. The dead who were "spiritually dead" will remain and be raised later for the Great White Throne Judgment, who will go on to be separated from God for eternity.

The dead in Christ simply means they were believers who entered into physical death.
They will be resurrected first.

The spiritually dead, speaks of people that never believed in Christ. Unbelievers.
The unbeliever faces the great White Throne Judgment.

 

[TommyT]

I hate to see you using foul allusions in language to what I said, and so will leave you to your own devices.

MM

=============

THANKS, as I will with yours....

 

[Musicmaster]

Yes...
Gentiles have been grafted into the same position...

By "same position," what do you mean, if you don't mind my asking? Gentiles were grafted into the same vine, but I'm not sure what you mean by "same position," which seems to imply replacement theological trappings, therefore my reason for asking.

Gentiles do not become Jews when they believe. And, both Jews and Gentiles become the one New Man when either believes in
the Son of God, Jesus Christ.

There was a time, up to the time of the Gospel of Grace, whereby Gentiles HAD to become Jews in order to find salvation. The scriptures make that clear, and in the tribulation period, that will once again lead into the same requirement in the Millennial Kingdom under the Kingdom Gospel that was initiated by John the Baptist and continued by Christ Himself.

There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave
nor free, nor is there male and female, for you
are all one in Christ Jesus.! Galatians 3:28

Yes, under the Gospel of Grace, this is absolutely true.

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:
The old has gone, the new is here! 2 Corinthians 5:17

Yes. Amen.

It was just that the Jews, because of their past history with God, had already known the way of morality under the Law. Jews who believed found it an easy adaption as they entered into the new life in Christ The Gentiles on the other hand, needed to be grafted in and needed to learn a new way of life for them.. Prior to then, most Gentiles were living what the Jews saw as immoral lives. That was one reason the Jews had looked down upon the "goyim."

But. its not been that way since the Church went into the world and transformed Gentiles into living moral lives with virtue like the Jews had. Yes... the Gentiles had been a raunchy bunch until God got a hold on them! They needed to be grafted in to a way of life.
That is why today in America we refer to ourslves as a Judio Christian culture.

Having fun yet? Grace and peace ..........

I don't know about fun, but the deeper things of the word of God are exciting.

Ephesians 2:11-13
11 Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Because Israel continued in their rejection of Christ after His ascension, Gentiles had no other means for salvation, and so the Gospel of Grace brought about the only means for salvation with Israel having been cut off for the time being, only to be grafted back in at a later time.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Israel chose the path of fruitlessness, which means that they could no longer remain the conduit through which the Gentiles could obtain salvation, and so was born the reality of "unmerited favor," by which is meant that we now do not have to do works to perfect our faith, for God's favor is of the type that we cannot by any means "merit" His favor. It is conferred, not earned, as a number of false religions (denominations) have taught historically and still teach to this day and beyond, yammering much about "ecumenical" nonsense that leads only to compromises of absolute truths that cannot be bent, warped and twisted to their pretzel-like belief systems.

Amen

MM

 

[sawdust]

I'm still not getting the thrust of that, but I don't see that it causes a crisis of theological proportions.

MM

He confessed Jesus as Messiah, the One sent by God to save. It is upon that confession the Church is built.

 

[sawdust]

Those that belong to the first resurrection are those that reign with Jesus, they reign during
the millennium.

Revelation 20:4
Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw
the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because
of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not
received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands; and they came to life and reigned
with Christ for a thousand years.

Revelation 20:5
The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

The rest of the dead are not raised until the thousand years are completed.

Who belongs to the First Resurrection? There's only two, one to life and one to condemnation.

John 5:29
and come forth— those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.


If the resurrection of the Church doesn't occur until the Second Coming and they return with Christ to heaven as per Jn.14:3 (which is tricky in itself as Jesus doesn't return to heaven, He remains on earth), then who is left to enter the Millenium? Unbelievers will all be removed at the Coming of Christ as per Matt.24:40-41, so who is left on Earth to reign with Christ and who will they reign over?

 

[Musicmaster]

Who belongs to the First Resurrection? There's only two, one to life and one to condemnation.

John 5:29
and come forth— those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.


If the resurrection of the Church doesn't occur until the Second Coming and they return with Christ to heaven as per Jn.14:3 (which is tricky in itself as Jesus doesn't return to heaven, He remains on earth), then who is left to enter the Millenium? Unbelievers will all be removed at the Coming of Christ as per Matt.24:40-41, so who is left on Earth to reign with Christ and who will they reign over?

Preterism is not something with which one can reason.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Generally speaking:

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

As we can see from this Kingdom Gospel spoken by Peter (after the apostles had received Holy Spirit), which is a Gospel that is no longer active through this Gospel of Grace dispensation, they at that time were required to repent, and be water baptized (both FOR the remission of sins) and THEN they would receive Holy Spirit. Just like the pre-tribulational rapture fact, some swap Peter's message around to try and force it into saying what THEY want it to say to try and make it fit for us today.

That means that what they are preaching is "another gospel," which makes them accursed, according to scripture.

MM

 

[Genez]

So how long is that tribulation before Jesus returns?

You really don't know?
Is that why you ask?

Jesus once met someone like you...

“How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.​

​

“You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?​

​

John 3:9-10​

The religious always fail to grasp what the spiritual cherish and understand.

The Tribulation... (according to strait and narrow media)
Will be, seven years.

 

[Genez]

Jesus also has another fold of sheep. And the 2 both become one...a new creation...neither Greek or Jew. This was the plan all along.

As gentile believers pranced around the Jews who had been circumcized, going ... HA! HA!HAAAA! We got salvation anyway!

 

[Cameron143]

As gentile believers pranced around the Jews who had been circumcized, going ... HA! HA!HAAAA! We got salvation anyway!

I could only give a like. This is funny but doubtful it took place. But if it did, the Jews would still have gotten the last laugh, as Gentile churches sent support to the church in Jerusalem. They might not have gotten their skin,but Gentiles still had skin in the game.

 

[Genez]

In your own system of thought, what do you suppose we will be reigning over, or rather, whom? The tribulational nations upon the new earth already ruled over and governed by Christ and Israel from within the New Jerusalem, or among our own ranks in Heaven? I'm just curious, because that text does not at all indicate the objects of our rule with Christ.

MM

The Jews according to their Scriptures, were waiting for the Messiah to reign directly over Israel. Not the entire world.

Later, Jesus said he was bring in those not of his flock = Gentiles.

Qualified Resurrected Gentile Christians will be reigning under His rulership the other nations which will be all under the Lord's reign.

 

[enril]

No. Many confess with their lip service to the Lord, but their hearts are far from the Lord:

Isaiah 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near [me] with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

Words save nobody. The sinner's prayer saves nobody. Given that it is the heart the Lord looks upon, all other is meaningless when the heart is not set upon faith.



That's a rudiment of extreme Calvinism, not the scriptures. When one is born again, and is therefore made a new creation, they do not ever revert back into the old, and they do not become unsealed from Holy Spirit. I asked many times who here had ever lost their salvation, or who out there they think they knew lost theirs, and only a couple had anything to say in response, never providing anything of substance to back up those concepts. They never could show to me where Paul ever wrote that unsealing from Holy Spirit was at all possible, or that anyone who truly was of the faith ever departed, and thus becoming unborn again and unsealed.



I can't say that I understand the assumptions you're making, but you appear to be dead set upon them no matter what anyone else says or shows to you. The seal upon us as true believers who have faith, it's not like a wax seal upon a scroll or letter. Whatever you envision as the seal upon your life, that's between you and the Lord, but I dare you show to me anything thereby one can become unsealed under the Gospel of Grace, which did not require water baptism, but only to believe upon the crucifixion of Christ, His burial and His resurrection on the third day.

There are VERY good reasons why this is true, but most don't want to hear it because they think that they also must do works legitimize or solidify faith, the preachers of which are accursed, as Paul stated:

Galatians 1:8-9
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Paul was good at ensuring people understood the emphasis when repeating himself like that. He's serious, and so all those groups out there who add to Paul's Gospel the idea and requirement of works or anything else, they are accursed...every one of them.

MM

I agree. but I honestly was a christian. you are saying that those who are saved in their childhood were lying? that is what I get.

 

[Genez]

I could only give a like. This is funny but doubtful it took place. But if it did, the Jews would still have gotten the last laugh, as Gentile churches sent support to the church in Jerusalem. They might not have gotten their skin,but Gentiles still had skin in the game.

Was just joking....

The Gentiles were sending money to Jerusalem in part as a token of appreciation the great heritage they now had become grafted into.
Paul was teaching Gentiles many principles of doctrine that Jews had already had ingrained into their thinking. That is why Paul often taught Gentiles principles of doctrine from the OT Scriptures.