questian for those who want children

[presidente]

Lest we forget:
-Nadab and Abihu (children of Aaron)
-Hophni and Phinehas (sons of Eli)
-Joel Abijah (sons of Samuel)
-Davids many rotten sons
-Cain
-every son and daughter who died on the flood
-every son and daughter in Caanan at the time of Joshua
-the sons and daughters who died in the WW2 Jewish holocaust

There are no guarantees as far as kids are concerned. Myself, I will not gamble knowing the reality of this world and who presently owns it. Fortunately Paul says to stay as you are, and refrain from commitments to children because of "present distress". And as I perceive that these ARE INDEED the last seconds of this present doomed age, I have been excused from having children. And I rejoice and praise God for this.

If you are single, that's fine. But if you are married, there is 'Be fruitful and multiply.' Of course God has to enable the individual couple.

It would be awful for a woman to marry expecting children and for the husband just to refuse. In Biblical times, sex was what produced children. It still is, but for the past several decades, we've had some relatively effective methods of birth control. There is a law that indicates that a man is supposed to provide his wife (or concubine) with food, clothing, and sex. Sex kind of implies the potential to have children.

 

[Billyd]

Indeed. The most persistent prayer request at our church (heavily weighted to older folks) is for the salvation of their children.
Its heartbreaking. I am not interested in that kind of heartache. If after doing my best my children failed to accept the gospel, I could never live with myself.

All God ask of you is to bring them up in Him. He will do the rest.

We need more children who are raised in families that live lives for Christ. Sadly, today, only a few Church families are raised as Christian families.

 

[GWYW_Bob]

Lest we forget:
-Nadab and Abihu (children of Aaron)
-Hophni and Phinehas (sons of Eli)
-Joel Abijah (sons of Samuel)
-Davids many rotten sons
-Cain
-every son and daughter who died on the flood
-every son and daughter in Caanan at the time of Joshua
-the sons and daughters who died in the WW2 Jewish holocaust

There are no guarantees as far as kids are concerned. Myself, I will not gamble knowing the reality of this world and who presently owns it. Fortunately Paul says to stay as you are, and refrain from commitments to children because of "present distress". And as I perceive that these ARE INDEED the last seconds of this present doomed age, I have been excused from having children. And I rejoice and praise God for this.

The "present distress" was a long time ago. The Bible is very clear about God's decision to open or close a womb, so ultimately it's God's work. That's why I don't concern myslef with the process. If God wants us to have a baby we eventually will and if he doesn't then there isn't anything we can do about it.

My desire to add someone to the kingdom is stronger than my inclination to not want to be troubled with being a father.

 

[cv5]

The "present distress" was a long time ago. The Bible is very clear about God's decision to open or close a womb, so ultimately it's God's work. That's why I don't concern myslef with the process. If God wants us to have a baby we eventually will and if he doesn't then there isn't anything we can do about it.

My desire to add someone to the kingdom is stronger than my inclination to not want to be troubled with being a father.

I disagree with your idea that the "present distress" was a long time ago. Neither of us have to go through the list of the horrible things that have happened since then. The pogroms the plagues the wars, massive death on an industrial scale, present day nuclear weapons where pushbutton death happens instantaneously everywhere to everyone. The fact alone of nuclear weapons is sufficient cause to refrain from having children in terms of present distress.

Despite all of this, there are people all over the world having children in refugee camps, the most squalid of slums and ghettos, to the absolute worst parents imaginable. So none of us need to worry about creating new people for the kingdom. There are plenty of candidates being made. And you can be sure that it's not going to stop because of trials and tribulation. Rest assured people will be having plenty of sex and children all the way through the 7 year tribulation including the great tribulation. Really it's unbelievable.

 

[GWYW_Bob]

I disagree with your idea that the "present distress" was a long time ago. Neither of us have to go through the list of the horrible things that have happened since then. The pogroms the plagues the wars, massive death on an industrial scale, present day nuclear weapons where pushbutton death happens instantaneously everywhere to everyone. The fact alone of nuclear weapons is sufficient cause to refrain from having children in terms of present distress.

Despite all of this, there are people all over the world having children in refugee camps, the most squalid of slums and ghettos, to the absolute worst parents imaginable. So none of us need to worry about creating new people for the kingdom. There are plenty of candidates being made. And you can be sure that it's not going to stop because of trials and tribulation. Rest assured people will be having plenty of sex and children all the way through the 7 year tribulation including the great tribulation. Really it's unbelievable.

1 Corinthians was written a long time ago. Paul addressed a specific question someone asked him. Married couples should try to have children. They don't have to be worried sick about it, but they are commanded to be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth. Do we not trust God to take care of the children he commands us to have?

 

[cv5]

SIMPLE ANSWER: GOD TOLD MEN AND WOMEN TO HAVE CHILDREN.

IMO, This has been abrogated and nullified for the Church, for many reasons I will not detail now. Furthermore I believe that Christians are told to understand that they inhabit the heavenly's already, and, as God sees a future act of His will already completed in the present, we should walk as if we already existed in our glorified new heavenly bodies, which means that marriage and children are optional if not to be avoided altogether. Completely unnecessary for eternal beings who do not belong in this world neither do we owe anything to it. We are in Christ. That's it and that's all. We are the ultimate consummation of Gods will, plan, redemption, promises and covenants. The one and only reason that the Saints are here in this little sandbox presently is to preach the Word and fulfill the great commission.

The real ultimate truth for Christians is that the Sons are free!

 

[cv5]

1 Corinthians was written a long time ago. Paul addressed a specific question someone asked him. Married couples should try to have children. They don't have to be worried sick about it, but they are commanded to be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth. Do we not trust God to take care of the children he commands us to have?

There is no doubt my mind whatsoever that the command to have children is abrogated and nullified for Christians. But first you need to understand the uniqueness of Christians. Which many people fail to comprehend.

 

[PennEd]

Men and women, why do you want children? I'm just curious why so many people want children.

Many reasons, but seeing the world through the eyes of a child, has to be among the top. Their innocence is so refreshing in a jaded world.

 

[Mii]

If be fruitful and multiply is taken as a command, three children or more per couple is multiplying. Two is just replacement.

But if they were both widowed and remarried having three kids each from the prior marriage, does that new marriage have to 'multiply'--or try.

If we take it as a blessing, it shows us that multiplying is desirable.

See this is what I call "insert my name logic".

"IF" this is a command then multiply...not carry on your line, have a child, etc.

Interesting and I appreciate the thought trail.


Personally I want to have as many children as possible, but adopting an orphan isn't "multiplying" per se. Something like a grafted family though and this sort of follows along the lines of gentiles being grafted in.

Also you have Abraham who had how many children "directly" that we know of...and yet...


So there are a few more "angles" to consider with that logic for myself personally, but I like it

 

[Nehemiah6]

IMO, This has been abrogated and nullified for the Church...

Not at all. The Church consists of those who have been saved by grace, and believers are commanded to marry and bear children.

Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband. (1 Cor 7:2)

Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge. (Heb 13:4)

Notwithstanding she [THE CHRISTIAN WOMAN] shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. (1 Tim 2:15)

I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully. (1 Tim 5:14)

Christians are not at liberty to nullify what God has commanded. Indeed any commandment to abstain from marriage is a doctrine of devils. And we know the evils of celibacy in the Catholic Church and the results of commanding celibacy.

 

[cv5]

If be fruitful and multiply is taken as a command, three children or more per couple is multiplying. Two is just replacement.

But if they were both widowed and remarried having three kids each from the prior marriage, does that new marriage have to 'multiply'--or try.

If we take it as a blessing, it shows us that multiplying is desirable.

I can't help myself for asking so I have a question:
Were Canaanite children a blessing and if so to whom?

In my opinion they are all kinds of children born in this world who do not end up being a blessing to anybody. In fact quite the contrary. Kim Jong-un? Genghis Khan? Levrenti Beria? The list is endless.

 

[cv5]

Not at all. The Church consists of those who have been saved by grace, and believers are commanded to marry and bear children.

Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband. (1 Cor 7:2)

Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge. (Heb 13:4)

Notwithstanding she [THE CHRISTIAN WOMAN] shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. (1 Tim 2:15)

I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully. (1 Tim 5:14)

Christians are not at liberty to nullify what God has commanded. Indeed any commandment to abstain from marriage is a doctrine of devils. And we know the evils of celibacy in the Catholic Church and the results of commanding celibacy.

No. Paul is advising marriage because people are prone to fornication (sin), to occupy troublemakers and busybodies (sin), and for all intents and purposes to placate the flesh and the needs of the flesh remedially (sinning flesh) . All of those dictates were not commandments they were in fact concessions to the flesh, and certainly not in any way doctrine, as many Christians would have it. Paul made it perfectly clear that its preferential to be single like he was, and consequently childlessness was also preferential. If you can control your sinful passions!
And if you cannot control your sinful passions you should marry, and there is no sin in marriage.
For Christians marriage merely solves a sin problem. This is clear from the text, it is not some kind of high and holy calling. The high and holy calling is Christ and Christ alone. Paul is making it clear that everything else is a compromise in my opinion.

If you are so imbued with the Holy Spirit as Paul was to avoid the lusts of the flesh I guarantee you you will never be married. In fact he wouldn't give it a second thought. And you certainly wouldn't be fixated on it night and day!

And if you care to notice, there is no commandment from the Lord to marry or have children for Christians, as Paul makes perfectly clear. Jesus Himself is silent on the matter, other than implying that it is a compromise, and to deny unlawful divorce. And somebody show me one single solitary marriage ceremony or announcement and one child birth noted in Scripture in the Church age. Everybody knows it's not there.

No. The present church age is preach preach preach great commission great commission, and worshiping at the feet of Jesus Christ Messiah and glorifying Him, and waiting for His soon coming. This present sinful life and present sinful world will not even be remembered in the world to come in my opinion.

In closing let me emphasize that there is no sin in marriage in childbearing. No sinning not a sin.

 

[presidente]

I can't help myself for asking so I have a question:
Were Canaanite children a blessing and if so to whom?

In my opinion they are all kinds of children born in this world who do not end up being a blessing to anybody. In fact quite the contrary. Kim Jong-un? Genghis Khan? Levrenti Beria? The list is endless.

Paul said the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband. Else were your children unclean but now are they holy.

Malachi 2:15
But did He not make them one, Having a remnant of the Spirit? And why one? He seeks godly offspring. Therefore take heed to your spirit, And let none deal treacherously with the wife of his youth.
(NKJV)


Are you concerned that you would have ungodly offspring? Why?

 

[presidente]

No. Paul is advising marriage because people are prone to fornication (sin), to occupy troublemakers and busybodies (sin), and for all intents and purposes to placate the flesh and the needs of the flesh remedially (sinning flesh) . All of those dictates were not commandments they were in fact concessions to the flesh, and certainly not in any way doctrine, as many Christians would have it. Paul made it perfectly clear that its preferential to be single like he was, and consequently childlessness was also preferential. If you can control your sinful passions!

You are overstating your case. Paul says it is better to marry than to burn. Your translation might have added 'with passion' in the italics, but that is an interpretation on the translators part. Desiring marriage is not sinful. Paul also acknowledges that both the long-term celibate path and the married path are charismata when he says every man hath received his proper gift from God, one after this manner and another after that (I Corinthians 7:7). While marriage is helpful for preventing fornication, it is also grace from God to marry. Some people are gifted to marry. Some are gifted to remain celibate. Just like other gifts, we should not think less of certain Christians for having one gift or the other. If there were no married Christians, the number of Christians might shrink rather quickly.

The medeival Roman Catholic pressure to be celibate may have been excessive, and the modern Protestant tendency to have almost no room for the idea of life-long celibacy is going to far, also.

Paul was fruitful by winning people to Christ. He had many children in the faith.

And if you cannot control your sinful passions you should marry, and there is no sin in marriage.
For Christians marriage merely solves a sin problem. This is clear from the text, it is not some kind of high and holy calling. The high and holy calling is Christ and Christ alone. Paul is making it clear that everything else is a compromise in my opinion.

If you are so imbued with the Holy Spirit as Paul was to avoid the lusts of the flesh I guarantee you you will never be married. In fact he wouldn't give it a second thought. And you certainly wouldn't be fixated on it night and day!

Christ is an example of both celibacy and of being a groom. He lived celibate on the earth, but a bride is being prepared for the Son.

And if you care to notice, there is no commandment from the Lord to marry or have children for Christians, as Paul makes perfectly clear. Jesus Himself is silent on the matter, other than implying that it is a compromise, and to deny unlawful divorce.

And somebody show me one single solitary marriage ceremony or announcement and one child birth noted in Scripture in the Church age. Everybody knows it's not there.

The modern church wedding ceremony where a religious official pronounces a couple married just is not in scripture at all. Revelation does speak of the marriage supper of the Lamb. Weddings in Biblical times often involved a man paying a bride price for a virgin then later coming to get her and throwing a party, then taking her into his tent or house to be his wife.

Jesus did mentioned celibacy, I believe, when he said there are some who are have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake.

 

[tourist]

Men and women, why do you want children? I'm just curious why so many people want children.

Got me. It just seemed like the thing to do at the time. Got 1 daughter, now 40, married and with 5 kids of her own. Not sure why she wanted children. Maybe she just had love in her heart from God to share with her precious children. She is certainly a wonderful devoted mother that's for sure.

 

[tourist]

SIMPLE ANSWER: GOD TOLD MEN AND WOMEN TO HAVE CHILDREN.

God has told me a lot of stuff to do in my life and with my life, most of which, to my own misfortune I ignored. I had only one daughter but God certainly didn't tell me to create a child. In fact, God told me not to get married to her mother. Again, to my own misfortune, I ignored Him. Some guys learn the hard way. I am a graduate of the School of Hard Knocks.

 

[Nehemiah6]

God told me not to get married to her mother.

She may have been the wrong woman for you. That's all.

 

[cv5]

Paul said the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband. Else were your children unclean but now are they holy.

Malachi 2:15
But did He not make them one, Having a remnant of the Spirit? And why one? He seeks godly offspring. Therefore take heed to your spirit, And let none deal treacherously with the wife of his youth.
(NKJV)


Are you concerned that you would have ungodly offspring? Why?

Lol. Neither a Canaanite wife nor husband were Christians, so your example does little to help answer the question that I asked. Kind of a shot in the dark?

The Malachi quote pertains to Israelites, whose inheritance was the land therefore children were an absolute necessity. Christians do not inherit the land, they have a heavenly inheritance, and that quote definitely does not pertain to Christians.

Almost all offspring start off ungodly. And some stay that way. No matter what.
I forgot to add Solomon to the list below.

https://christianchat.com/christian...-those-who-want-children.192827/#post-4286757

The point is, obviously, that even the most godly of men can produce truly wretched children.

 

[cv5]

If you are single, that's fine. But if you are married, there is 'Be fruitful and multiply.' Of course God has to enable the individual couple.

It would be awful for a woman to marry expecting children and for the husband just to refuse. In Biblical times, sex was what produced children. It still is, but for the past several decades, we've had some relatively effective methods of birth control. There is a law that indicates that a man is supposed to provide his wife (or concubine) with food, clothing, and sex. Sex kind of implies the potential to have children.

BTW, I am in fact married.

 

[presidente]

Lol. Neither a Canaanite wife nor husband were Christians, so your example does little to help answer the question that I asked. Kind of a shot in the dark?

Also consider some of the people in the Bible who started off being born as children:

Seth, Enoch, Noah, Shem, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Levi, Simeon, Judah, etc., Joseph, Moses, Joshua, Samuel, David, Elijah, Elishah, Isaiah, Micah, Jeremiah, Zerubabel, Ezra, Nehemiah, Malachi, John the Baptist, Jesus Christ, the twelve apostles, Paul, Silas, Timothy, Aquilla and Priscilla.

Those are just samples.