Prophecy, it’s not what most think.

[garee]

Genesis 4:

11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;

12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.

13 And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear.

14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.

15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.


Cain told God his punishment ... not "hell" ... was too much to bear because "every one that finds me shall slay me" ... interesting that he didn't want what he did to Abel to happen to him.





"sufferings of natural unconverted mankind" ... yes "sufferings"

However, "no rest in their work of suffering" does not equal hell. Hell will be eternal separation from God.

In this lifetime, even the unbeliever is surrounded by God's goodness ... God makes the sun to shine on all ... sends the rain to all. So even if a person is an unbeliever, that unbeliever is exposed to the goodness of God through His bountiful goodness upon all and through the believers who live in this world shining their lights upon all and showing God's love to all.

There will be a time when that will no longer be the case ... and there will be eternal separation from God. That is the "hell" to which I refer. You do not appear to be referring to that.

Having said that ... yes, in agreement concerning the sabbath rest found only in Christ Jesus our Lord ... His burden is light, His yoke is easy.

The punishment is carrying out the letter of the law "death the wage of sin" .By reason of suffering the pangs of hell.

The wrath being reveled from heaven witnessed on earth continually

The whole creation had all ready been corrupted when the glory of God departed day 3. The load was increasing to a place where mankind could not bear it without being yoked with Christ Sabbath rest which Abel was freely given.

The devil tried to bargain with God and shorten the sentence. Satan's goal is to kill on sight. The serial killer of the whole human race. The Spirit of Christ rebuked the devil and said mark my word according to the letter, it is law. (666) What he say will come to pass .All the days of your life you will look for comfort in your sufferings( the wage of sin Hell )and find none. Pray for death it will not come.

 

[Truth7t7]

You are in error, the bible teaches of the Rapture of those DEAD in Christ, go look up those words DEAD IN CHRIST.......They are there. Then Daniel and those Jews will be raised on the LAST DAY.

Dispensationalism Claims 1 Thess 4:14-17 Is A Pre-Trib Rapture Of The Church, Is It?

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 Is The "Last Day" Resurrection!

The dead in Christ are resurrected and the living caught up at the Lords return, this takes place "Immediately after the tribulation"

Let's take a look at the most "Popular" scripture used by dispensationalist to claim a Pre-Trib rapture, 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17KJV

In 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 below you see the "Resurrection" of the dead in Christ, this Takes place in the "Last Day" John 6:39-40, immediately after the tribulation Matthew 24:29-31.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17KJV
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The resurrection seen in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 above takes place on the "Last Day" at the return of Jesus Christ.

This is not a "Pre-Tribulation Rapture" as is falsely taught in dispensationalism.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Below we see the return of Jesus Christ and the "Last Day Resurrection" same event as 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 above, this takes place "Immediately After The Tribulation"

Matthew 24:29-31KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[Truth7t7]

Calvinist are also in error on their pre-ordained position.

We are all PRE ORDAINED by the blood of Jesus, some just refuse to accept it. God doesn't pick and choose who comes to him.

Your statement in red above is false, as Gods words teach otherwise.

Ephesians 1:1-7KJV
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

 

[Truth7t7]

This is incorrect, the scriptures do not have Jesus returning in Zechariah 14:1-2, that is a misdiagnosis by you.

Zechariah 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. 9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

So 1/3 of the Jews repent {which would be more like 2 Million people at least} and 2/3 refuse and thus perish.

DAY OF THE LORD
Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Second Coming/Jesus' Victory
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

So Israel REPENTS BEFORE the Day of the Lord, just like Malachi 4:5-6 says, we see that they repent in Zechariah 12:10 {we know that one so I didn't post it, Zechariah 13:8-9, and THEN the DOTL Arrives in Zechariah 14:1-2 with the Anti-Christ coming against Jerusalem. Then 3.5 years later, of course, Jesus returns to the Mount of Olives and he will then defeat all evil.

Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet BEFORE the coming of the great and dreadful DAY of the Lord: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

We will disagree.

Zechariah 14:1-12 is the gathering of the nation's for the battle of Armageddon, and the second coming of Jesus Christ in fire and final judgement.

Zechariah 14:1-12 below shows the Lords return to earth in fire in final judgement.

(Verse 1) shows "The Day Of The Lord" also seen in 2 Peter 3:10-13 "Fire Judgement" below

(Verse 2) Shows that all nations are gathered for the final battle of armageddon.

(Verses 3-5) shows the Lords return, and his eternal feet touch down on the earthly Mt, of Olives, and in the "Twinkling Of An Eye" 1 Cor 15:52 takes place, in the catching up, resurrection, final judgement by fire, and the New Heavens, Earth, and Jerusalem being revealed for eternity, judgement complete, eternity begins.

(Verses 6-7) Eternal light seen, in the eternal kingdom, Rev 22:1-5

(Verse 8) The river of life is seen, Rev 22:1-5

(Verse 10) The New creation is being revealed, the plain is lifted up.

(Verse 12) "The Day Of The Lord" showing the "Last Day" judgement by the Lords fire, as men are consumed as they stand on their feet, 2 Peter 3:10-13

Zechariah 14:1-12KJV
14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 but it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the Lordshall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin’s gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king’s winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

Revelation 1st Beast Historic Church view

CHAPTER 13


Verse 1
a. Here is the description of the Romaine empire which standeth in crueltie and tyrannie.
b. Meaning Rome, because it was first governed by seven Kings or Emperours after Nero, and also is compassed about wc seven mountaines.
c. Which signifie manie provinces.


Geneva Bible: Notes. (1560). (Vol. 2, p. 118). Geneva: Rovland Hall.

The general consensus among evangelicals is that the four beasts of Daniel are as follows:
1) Babylonian Empire
2) Medo-Persian Empire
3) Greek Empire
4) Roman Empire
https://www.gotquestions.org/Daniel-four-beasts.html

But you are saying the 1st Beast Of Revelation is the Roman Empire.
therefore, this should mean that the following is correct

The four beasts of Daniel are as follows:
1) Babylonian Empire
2) Medo-Persian Empire
3) Greek Empire
4) Roman Empire Roman Republic .

What do you think?


Also,

do you have an opinion on what the 2nd Beast of Revelation is/was?
Do you have an opinion on what the Prostitute of Babylon is?

Any non-answers I will take as an, 'i don't know'

 

[Truth7t7]

The general consensus among evangelicals is that the four beasts of Daniel are as follows:
1) Babylonian Empire
2) Medo-Persian Empire
3) Greek Empire
4) Roman Empire
https://www.gotquestions.org/Daniel-four-beasts.html

But you are saying the 1st Beast Of Revelation is the Roman Empire.
therefore, this should mean that the following is correct

The four beasts of Daniel are as follows:
1) Babylonian Empire
2) Medo-Persian Empire
3) Greek Empire
4) Roman Empire Roman Republic .

What do you think?


Also,

do you have an opinion on what the 2nd Beast of Revelation is/was?
Do you have an opinion on what the Prostitute of Babylon is?

Any non-answers I will take as an, 'i don't know'

1.) The whore "Mystery Babylon" of Revelation is Jerusalem.

2.) The second beast coming from the earth is the false prophet, a human man

 

[garee]

The general consensus among evangelicals is that the four beasts of Daniel are as follows:
1) Babylonian Empire
2) Medo-Persian Empire
3) Greek Empire
4) Roman Empire
https://www.gotquestions.org/Daniel-four-beasts.html

But you are saying the 1st Beast Of Revelation is the Roman Empire.
therefore, this should mean that the following is correct

The four beasts of Daniel are as follows:
1) Babylonian Empire
2) Medo-Persian Empire
3) Greek Empire
4) Roman Empire Roman Republic .

What do you think?


Also,

do you have an opinion on what the 2nd Beast of Revelation is/was?
Do you have an opinion on what the Prostitute of Babylon is?

Any non-answers I will take as an, 'i don't know'

They all represent the same spirit of lies called Legion .The father of all lies. The father of every faithless pagan religion .

All who fornicate with the gods of this world are are considered prostitutes having violated the first commandment.

Unlike the chaste virgin bride of Christ

Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

1.) The whore "Mystery Babylon" of Revelation is Jerusalem.

2.) The second beast coming from the earth is the false prophet, a human man

1) Jesulsalem was destroyed before Revelation was written, What kind of prophesy is this? No kind of prophesy at all. Not Buying!

2) So a beast with four heads represents the Greek Empire, and a beast with three ribs in its mouth represents another empire, the Medo-Persion empire, but a larger beast with 7 heads and 10 horns represents just a single man with one head. No Buying?

 

[Dave-L]

The general consensus among evangelicals is that the four beasts of Daniel are as follows:
1) Babylonian Empire
2) Medo-Persian Empire
3) Greek Empire
4) Roman Empire
https://www.gotquestions.org/Daniel-four-beasts.html

But you are saying the 1st Beast Of Revelation is the Roman Empire.
therefore, this should mean that the following is correct

The four beasts of Daniel are as follows:
1) Babylonian Empire
2) Medo-Persian Empire
3) Greek Empire
4) Roman Empire Roman Republic .

What do you think?


Also,

do you have an opinion on what the 2nd Beast of Revelation is/was?
Do you have an opinion on what the Prostitute of Babylon is?

Any non-answers I will take as an, 'i don't know'

I think we are posing a problem for you by calling on the historic Church that condemned Premillennialism as heresy.

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

I think we are posing a problem for you by calling on the historic Church that condemned Premillennialism as heresy.

This doesn't answer any of my questions that were posed to you.

Who are "we" that you are referring to?
And what problem are you posing for me?

I have never taken a stance on premillennialism, so don't understand why that is being mentioned.

Out of the kindness of your heart can you please answer my questions? I am simply interested in your opinion on the following:
1) what do you think is the 4th beast of Daniel?
2) what do you think is the 2nd beast of Revelation?
3) what do you think is the prostitute of bablyon in Revelation?.

If you don't have a firm opinion than that is fine, I am not judging. I am not looking to critique you.
I have tried to find commonality with you on multiple occasions and maybe glean something off you, but you don't seem interested in this.

 

[Rondonmon]

If Christ saves you, you want nothing more than him. But you turn up your nose and consider if you want anything to do with him? The creator of the universe who remains impotent unless you "allow" him to audition for the role of savior?

Not even a legible sentence here. The fact remains the same, Pre ordination is a bogus concept.

 

[Rondonmon]

The dead in Christ are resurrected and the living caught up at the Lords return, this takes place "Immediately after the tribulation"

Wrong, it takes place before the 70th week. Of course one can explain to you guys 100 times and you still won't get it, so its just a wasted effort.

Matthew 24:29-31KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Of course, you can't grasp the difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming. It astounds me at the number of people trying to teach the bible who really can't grasp these core issues. I have been preaching and teaching these things for 35 years and it was the same in the 80s as now, people not called to teach are trying to teach. You have to put in tons of time sir in order to teach these things. Reading a bit here and there is not going to cut it, in order to teach on these issues you have to look at all angles, and that calls on lots of research, even proving or disproving one's own beliefs. Far too often the layman is unable to overcome his own beliefs. It i what it is.

 

[Truth7t7]

Wrong, it takes place before the 70th week. Of course one can explain to you guys 100 times and you still won't get it, so its just a wasted effort.


Of course, you can't grasp the difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming. It astounds me at the number of people trying to teach the bible who really can't grasp these core issues. I have been preaching and teaching these things for 35 years and it was the same in the 80s as now, people not called to teach are trying to teach. You have to put in tons of time sir in order to teach these things. Reading a bit here and there is not going to cut it, in order to teach on these issues you have to look at all angles, and that calls on lots of research, even proving or disproving one's own beliefs. Far too often the layman is unable to overcome his own beliefs. It i what it is.

One thing I do know, there will be no future pre-trib rapture or millennial kingdom on this earth, false teachings of men

 

[Truth7t7]

Wrong, it takes place before the 70th week. Of course one can explain to you guys 100 times and you still won't get it, so its just a wasted effort.


Of course, you can't grasp the difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming. It astounds me at the number of people trying to teach the bible who really can't grasp these core issues. I have been preaching and teaching these things for 35 years and it was the same in the 80s as now, people not called to teach are trying to teach. You have to put in tons of time sir in order to teach these things. Reading a bit here and there is not going to cut it, in order to teach on these issues you have to look at all angles, and that calls on lots of research, even proving or disproving one's own beliefs. Far too often the layman is unable to overcome his own beliefs. It i what it is.

I was able to overcome the "Belief" in dispensationalism, Darby, Scofield, Dallas Theological, and the whole bunch of false teachers.

Dispensationalism is deception!

 

[garee]

Wrong, it takes place before the 70th week. Of course one can explain to you guys 100 times and you still won't get it, so its just a wasted effort.


Of course, you can't grasp the difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming. It astounds me at the number of people trying to teach the bible who really can't grasp these core issues. I have been preaching and teaching these things for 35 years and it was the same in the 80s as now, people not called to teach are trying to teach. You have to put in tons of time sir in order to teach these things. Reading a bit here and there is not going to cut it, in order to teach on these issues you have to look at all angles, and that calls on lots of research, even proving or disproving one's own beliefs. Far too often the layman is unable to overcome his own beliefs. It i what it is.

You would have to define "second coming". Its why Jesus informed us he most leave so the Spirt of Christ that indwells the believer could come in full power. It was then that blasphemy against the Holy Spirt became unforgivable.

Blasphemy against the flesh and blood of the Son on mans seen the temporal lost its window of opportunity.

He is here reigning with saints. The question is when will he leave. The bible says on the last day

 

[Rondonmon]

4 according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Yes, Jesus was SLAIN before the foundation of the world as the book Revelation tells us via Rev. 13:8.

We are thus all CHOSEN via the blood of Jesus, God PREDESTINED US BEFOREHAND to the blood, knowing we would fall beforehand. The problem seems to be you don't understand God's ESSENCE, our God's ESSENCE, doesn't allow the type of God you designate Him to be, one that chooses the winners and losers, we all chose BY FAITH, whom we will follow, if God chose for us He would not be a just God, its just you and Calvin, not understanding the scriptures clearly.

We are PREDESTINED to NEED the BLOOD.

 

[Rondonmon]

You would have to define "second coming". Its why Jesus informed us he most leave so the Spirt of Christ that indwells the believer could come in full power. It was then that blasphemy against the Holy Spirt became unforgivable.

Blasphemy against the flesh and blood of the Son on mans seen the temporal lost its window of opportunity.

He is here reigning with saints. The question is when will he leave. The bible says on the last day

Its not the Second Coming in reality as Jesus has come back to earth many times, John 20 proves he came back to allow Thomas to TOUCH HIM, after telling Mary to NOT TOUCH HIM, because he had not yet ascended to the Father to offer the Sacrifice, and her SIN FLESH would have defiled the offering, seeing as no SIN FLESH can enter heaven.

The Second Coming really means the Second Advent, I know that, so when I say Second Coming, I am just going with the flow, but I mean of course the Second Advent. The First Advent was a Suffering Servant The Second Advent is as a Conquering King.

So the Second Coming is Jesus returning to rule on this earth via his 1000 year reign. He brings us {the Church} back with him just as Rev. 19 shows after we marry the Lamb. Its right there in writing. We see the Church in Rev. 4 and 5 BEFORE the Seals are opened.

Rev. 8, starts the Day of the lord, it lasts through 3.5 years of Wrath AND 1000 years of his Glorious reign.

 

[Rondonmon]

I was able to overcome the "Belief" in dispensationalism, Darby, Scofield, Dallas Theological, and the whole bunch of false teachers.

Dispensationalism is deception!

And you thus remain in error on the subject brother.

 

[garee]

Its not the Second Coming in reality as Jesus has come back to earth many times, John 20 proves he came back to allow Thomas to TOUCH HIM, after telling Mary to NOT TOUCH HIM, because he had not yet ascended to the Father to offer the Sacrifice, and her SIN FLESH would have defiled the offering, seeing as no SIN FLESH can enter heaven.

The Second Coming really means the Second Advent, I know that, so when I say Second Coming, I am just going with the flow, but I mean of course the Second Advent. The First Advent was a Suffering Servant The Second Advent is as a Conquering King.

So the Second Coming is Jesus returning to rule on this earth via his 1000 year reign. He brings us {the Church} back with him just as Rev. 19 shows after we marry the Lamb. Its right there in writing. We see the Church in Rev. 4 and 5 BEFORE the Seals are opened.

Rev. 8, starts the Day of the lord, it lasts through 3.5 years of Wrath AND 1000 years of his Glorious reign.

Hi thanks for the reply.

Jesus called Thomas faithless then lovingly commanded him to believe. (the gospel) The woman who was said to touch not. . . prematurely performed the consummation of the wedding of the bride. Virtue went out before its time .

The First Advent was a Suffering Servant as a conquering King. The second the end of the world. Death to the letter of the law.

 

[Dave-L]

Not even a legible sentence here. The fact remains the same, Pre ordination is a bogus concept.

So, you rob God of his glory in salvation and apply it to yourself?