No. We’re just talking about Catholics. You mentioned that I shouldn’t talk about my fellow Christians that way, so I thought you were saying Catholics were Christians. If you weren’t, then I misunderstood. My bad.
Proof That Catholics Worship Mary
- Thread starter Geshtinanna
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Bible-Only Christians are wrong when they say that Catholics worship Mary. The first half of the Hail Mary prayer is taken from the Bible (9a and 9b) as follows: "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus." And the second half merely asks her to pray for us: "Holy Mary mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death."
Okay, so your comment here is tied to Salvation and the answer in the orthodox church is Theosis.
In other words, we're not very busy trying to categorize people as Christians or Heathens. God will do that.
I've heard many Christians say that once we're in Heaven we'll be surprised by who isn't there. I think we'll be much more surprised by who is there.
Well, the religion itself is non-Christian. There are lots of other non-Christian religions. Not sure what the mystery is? Isn’t the thread about Catholics worshipping Mary? Thought I was on-topic?
I think i understand you better now.
So you can't even extend the grace to call someone Christian when they clearly worship Jesus Christ despite cultural interferences even when Jesus told you to extend the other cheek to a non believer who might even persecute you?
Is that what you're telling me here?
If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world.
He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.
And taking bread, he gave thanks, and broke; and gave to them, saying: This is my body, which is given for you. Do this for a commemoration of me.
Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord.
Ah yes, the Eucharist, this is a good one. I forgot about this one.
Q. Do the Catholics and Orthodox believe that they are literally having the blood and flesh of Christ which is transformed during liturgy or is it simply bread and wine?
A. This depends on the church but the point here is not to get them on a "gotcha" technicality but to see that they are following the command and tradition that Christ left us on His last supper to remember Him with all the significances of the verses on the last supper.
Mmm. What are we talking about here? I mean I have some Catholic friends who’ve gotten saved and come out of Catholicism. I’m not trying to call anyone names. Like I say, I didn’t mean to offend you. Are you Catholic? If so, I apologize.
I’m not a Catholic, I’m a follower of Christ like you and i go to different churches.
East Orthodox is my main one, a couple of Catholic ones and some Protestant ones who call themselves “non denominational”.
In all these places i see good Christians trying to follow Christ with some minor cultural interferences.
This topic was respawned due to another topic so we can ask each other direct questions and clear any misunderstandings.
Thank you and God bless.
"You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them." Exodus 20:4-5
Whether you call it worship or veneration is irrelevant. When you make a carved image and bow the knee to it, God hates it.
Whether you call it worship or veneration is irrelevant. When you make a carved image and bow the knee to it, God hates it.
A careful examination of "the sacrifice pf the Mass" shows that the RCC has gone completely rogue. We all know that Christ's "real presence" is always there in Spirit when real Christians have a real Remembrance Feast.
But the Catholic Church promotes the lie that (a) a priest must now "sacrifice" Christ (although it is a wafer) and (b) offer His blood as a part of the sacrifice. This in the face of what the Bible says, that the sacrifice of Christ was "ONE SACRIFICE FOR SINS FOREVER".
Here is what the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia has to say:
Without attempting to state and establish a comprehensive theory of sacrifice, it will suffice to show that, according to the comparative history of religions, four things are necessary to a sacrifice:
- a sacrificial gift (res oblata),
- a sacrificing minister (minister legitimus),
- a sacrificial action (actio sacrificica), and
- a sacrificial end or object (finis sacrificii).
In the revealed religion, as in nearly all heathen religions, only a qualified person (usually called priest, sacerdos, lereus), who has been given the power by commission or vocation, may offer up sacrifice in the name of the community. After Moses, the priests authorized by law in the Old Testament belonged to the tribe of Levi, and more especially to the house of Aaron (Hebrews 5:4).
But, since Christ Himself received and exercised His high priesthood, not by the arrogation of authority but in virtue of a Divine call, there is still greater need that priests who represent Him should receive power and authority through the Sacrament of Holy Orders to offer up the sublime Sacrifice of the New Law.
Sacrifice reaches its outward culmination in the sacrificial act, in which we have to distinguish between the proximate matter and the real form. The form lies, not in the real transformation or complete destruction of the sacrificial gift, but rather in its sacrificial oblation, in whatever way it may be transformed.
So by some sort of "magic" a wafer becomes "Christ". Can no one see the absurdity of this idea? And by some sort of "magic" a man receive the power to cause this transformation and offer up a "sacrifice". The OT priests would laugh at this.
"You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them." Exodus 20:4-5
Whether you call it worship or veneration is irrelevant. When you make a carved image and bow the knee to it, God hates it.
Agreed.
The optics of this does not look very good despite their intentions.
The optics of the Protestants do not look good sometimes either because they come across as worshiping a book but i'm sure that's not their intention either.
Yes, agreed, they've taken a bit of a detour in here with some traditions regarding what the priest can do.
To pray to Mary is an official doctrine of the RCC. Also, that she after the birth of Jesus still was a Virgin.
Yes, the perpetual virginity is also a big tradition trademark here.
Because the role of the mother is highly valued in the Mediterranean region, they have taken some liberties here with elevating Mary's mother status to Angel status.
I dont know. I bever claimed that. So far I know it was in europe first translatet from John Wyclif.
By whom was the first list of the books of the Bible drawn up? Pope Damasus, at the Roman Council of 382 A.D.