problem related to praying in tongues

[CS1]

wrong....
In the Judea area in the 1st century, Aramaic was the common language, which is what Jesus and the apostles undoubtedly spoke.

they also spoke Greek.

 

[Fundaamental]

1Cor. 14:2 is perhaps the quintessential verse used by many to “evidence” modern tongues-speech in the Bible.

If one were to paraphrase the KJB version of this verse into a more modern English, you'd need to get rid of the added “unknown”, use a more accurate translation from the Greek, and a more modern rendering of the archaic English word “tongue” –

Once done, you might end up with something more like this –

“He that speaks in a language isn’t speaking to others, but only to God; no one hears [him] with understanding; nevertheless, though he’s praying in the Spirit, he’s speaking mysteries.”

The whole passage is talking about real, rational language.

Let me use an analogy - If I attend a worship service in “East Haystack”, some remote town in the US out in the middle of nowhere, two things are going to be evident: one; there’s only going to be so many people at that service (i.e. there will be a finite given amount of people there) and two; the chances that anyone speaks anything but English is pretty slim to nil.

If I start praying aloud in say Lithuanian, there’s no one at that service that’s going to understand a single word I’m saying. Even though I’m speaking a real language, no one there will understand my “tongue”. That does not mean or imply that no one else understands Lithuanian; just no one at that particular service.

In this sense, therefore, I am speaking only to God, since he understands all languages. To everyone at the service, even though I’m praying in the Spirit (as defined further below), to the people listening to me, I’m still speaking “mysteries” – i.e. even though I’m praying as I ought, no one understands me; no one has a clue what I’m saying as no one speaks my language.

When one looks at the original Greek, the verb which is usually translated as “understandeth/understands” is actually the verb “to hear” in the sense of understanding what you’re hearing someone say. The verb is *not* “to understand”. That part of the verse is more properly “no one hears [him] with understanding”, i.e. no one listening to him understands what he’s saying.

There is nothing in this passage that suggests modern tongues-speech nor is there anything that even remotely suggests that the speaker does not understand what he himself is saying. The Greek bears this out; it is the listeners who do not understand, not the speaker – no matter how hard modern tongues-speakers want the speaker to also not understand…….unless the author of the text is a bad grammarian, it just isn’t there.

“Praying in the Spirit” does not refer to the words one is saying. Rather, it refers to how one is praying. In the three places it is used (Corinthians, Ephesians, and Jude), there is absolutely zero reference to 'languages' in connection with this phrase. “Praying in the Spirit” should be understood as praying in the power of the Spirit, by the leading of the Spirit, and according to His will.

another analogy would be, if you hear a song sang in a foreign voice, you still hear the spirit as you know the song has meaning, love ànd compassion, and inspiration of uplifting to elevate a person to higher ground.

The unbelievers may elevate also

The believers will certainly hear the spirit

 

[Kavik]

You are wrong.

1 Cor 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

1 Cor. 14:14-15 –

This one could easily take a few pages to explain properly, but I'll try and sum it up as briefly as possible.....

Again, you have to go to the Greek. This passage hinges on the Greek word “akarpos” – which can be used in two different ways: in an active sense and in a passive sense. Yes, it's an adjective, but most people do not realize that an adjective has something similar to grammatical voice like verbs. Adjectives can be used with a passive sense/meaning, or with an active sense/meaning.

Many people subscribe to a passive usage, i.e. my understanding is unfruitful ( to me ), or my understanding produces no fruit in/for me . In short, what I'm saying doesn't benefit me as I have no idea what I'm saying even though I am praying “in the spirit” (as defined in my original post).

Given that Paul, in his letter, calls for clarity and understanding at a public worship such that everyone there can benefit , an active understanding of ‘akarpos’ makes considerable more sense in light of what Paul is trying to convey: that is, my understanding is unfruitful for others , or my understanding produces no fruit for/in others .

In other words, the fact I, myself understand what I’m saying does not benefit anyone else as they don’t speak my language.

This is not just my view, but also the view of a number of Biblical commentators.

Now, before you think using this passage with an active meaning is something far-fetched, or a new concept, or a recent ‘theory’, consider Luther’s Bible of 1534 - written almost 500 years ago.

This same passage is rendered (in English) “...my understanding brings no one fruit ”.

Even almost 500 years ago, the idea of this passage having an active usage was nothing new. Indeed, an active understanding/reading fits better with Paul’s intent of clarity so all may benefit. Further, it's clear here the speaker is praying in a particular (known) language; specifically, his native language (which none in his audience speaks/understands - it kind if hinges back to 1 Cor. 14:2).

It seems that those Christian denominations that adhere to the modern understanding of tongues, as redefined by the Pentecostal church in the early 1900’s, will only entertain the passive passive usage of the phrase. Again, it's the only possible way for the passage to work to fit their concept of "tongues".

There’s just no evidence whatsoever of modern tongues-speech here. The speaker understands perfectly well what he’s saying; again, like 1 Cor. 14:2, it’s the audience who doesn’t understand, and thus does not benefit.

Verse 15 - In this verse, the speaker will 'pray/sing in the Spirit' (as defined in my original post), and will pray with his mind/understanding. The context requires that praying/singing with 'his mind' is understood to mean with his mind bearing fruit or being fruitful to others. Again, the active sense as already defined in verse 14. It's all about real, rational language. One the speaker knows, one the audience does not.

 

[Kavik]

The stupid is real if you think you will tongue twist those who know the difference.

Modern tongues-speech is an entirely self-created phenomenon. It is non-cognitive non-language utterance; random free vocalization based upon a subset of the existing underlying sounds (called phonemes) of the speaker’s native language, and any other language(s) the speaker may be familiar with or have had contact with.

It is, in part, typically characterized by repetitive syllables, plays on sound patterns, alliteration, assonance, and over-simplification of syllable structure.

Record yourself speaking in tongues for about a minute or so and then listen to it - really listen - play it back at a slower speed and transcribe it. You'll see that it fits nicely into the patterns described above.

The sort of 'nail in the coffin', so-to-speak, is that any and all phonological rules (rules governing how sounds are put together in a given language - what is allowed and what is disallowed) governing a speaker's native language, will also govern their tongues-speech.
Further, this subset of phonemes mentioned above typically contains only those sounds which are easiest to produce physiologically.

There just isn't anything that remotely suggests some type of divine speech here; it's entirely self created.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Modern tongues-speech is an entirely self-created phenomenon. It is non-cognitive non-language utterance; random free vocalization based upon a subset of the existing underlying sounds (called phonemes) of the speaker’s native language, and any other language(s) the speaker may be familiar with or have had contact with.

It is, in part, typically characterized by repetitive syllables, plays on sound patterns, alliteration, assonance, and over-simplification of syllable structure.

Record yourself speaking in tongues for about a minute or so and then listen to it - really listen - play it back at a slower speed and transcribe it. You'll see that it fits nicely into the patterns described above.

The sort of 'nail in the coffin', so-to-speak, is that any and all phonological rules (rules governing how sounds are put together in a given language - what is allowed and what is disallowed) governing a speaker's native language, will also govern their tongues-speech.
Further, this subset of phonemes mentioned above typically contains only those sounds which are easiest to produce physiologically.

There just isn't anything that remotely suggests some type of divine speech here; it's entirely self created.

I've already debunked you before with my mother n law an actual linguist since late 60s taught in universities from Vienna to Austria and studied the actual pigme linguistics in Australia.

Dude, you are a joke!

 

[Kavik]

I've already debunked you before with my mother n law an actual linguist since late 60s taught in universities from Vienna to Austria and studied the actual pigme linguistics in Australia.

I don't think you've debunked anything. Modern tongues-speech is what it is; non-cognitive non-language utterance.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

I don't think you've debunked anything. Modern tongues-speech is what it is; non-cognitive non-language utterance.

according to someone who does not have the infilling of the Holy Spirit. you might as well be, Satan!

 

[CS1]

I've already debunked you before with my mother n law an actual linguist since late 60s taught in universities from Vienna to Austria and studied the actual pigme linguistics in Australia.

Dude, you are a joke!

Lingusit does not validate the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Blade]

according to someone who does not have the infilling of the Holy Spirit. you might as well be, Satan!

You know talking about the sweet holy Spirit and tongues praise God but this kind of talk does not come from Him. Kavik just disagrees does not believe its still for today by what I read.

We know Paul spoke in tongues more then you all. Yet what he really said was "I thank God I speak in tongues more then you all". That in and of its self is a bold statement. Those that do not believe something we can say for fact they have never prayed about and asked God/Christ.

Tongues I notice some verses are skipped over "One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church [promotes growth in spiritual wisdom, devotion, holiness, and joy]."

Its the next verse I like how the AMP says it but any other version says the same "Now I wish that all of you spoke in unknown tongues, but even more [I wish] that you would prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater [and more useful] than the one who speaks in tongues, unless he translates or explains [what he says], so that the church may be edified [instructed, improved, "

So some read Paul said not me God said. I wish all of you spoke in tongues. You already know in your own life He never pushes shoves, forces, makes you do think anything but we will never be able to say "I didn't know". He will look at us and say "did I not say I wish you all spoke in tongues". or "did I not say how much more will your heavenly Father give the holy spirit to them that ask". See you know He does this in your life every day you have to make a choice some did they run with doubt. Its not faith saying gifts are gone for that to be true you have to look feel hear. You have to move by the flesh with God its never like that its faith. There is no verse saying all the gifts have stopped. Its not the perfect has come.. nope we know what it says "when". What does when mean? Same with Paul talking about caught up it was not them or they it was "we which remain".

Again just pick up that bible as if you never read about it heard about.. now read it...read Luke 11 13 you have no other thoughts.. no doubt.. just Christ saying only what the Father said.. God said if I ask for the holy Spirit He will give it? No ifs no buts.. you must be a believer..

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

You know talking about the sweet holy Spirit and tongues praise God but this kind of talk does not come from Him. Kavik just disagrees does not believe its still for today by what I read.

We know Paul spoke in tongues more then you all. Yet what he really said was "I thank God I speak in tongues more then you all". That in and of its self is a bold statement. Those that do not believe something we can say for fact they have never prayed about and asked God/Christ.

Tongues I notice some verses are skipped over "One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church [promotes growth in spiritual wisdom, devotion, holiness, and joy]."

Its the next verse I like how the AMP says it but any other version says the same "Now I wish that all of you spoke in unknown tongues, but even more [I wish] that you would prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater [and more useful] than the one who speaks in tongues, unless he translates or explains [what he says], so that the church may be edified [instructed, improved, "

So some read Paul said not me God said. I wish all of you spoke in tongues. You already know in your own life He never pushes shoves, forces, makes you do think anything but we will never be able to say "I didn't know". He will look at us and say "did I not say I wish you all spoke in tongues". or "did I not say how much more will your heavenly Father give the holy spirit to them that ask". See you know He does this in your life every day you have to make a choice some did they run with doubt. Its not faith saying gifts are gone for that to be true you have to look feel hear. You have to move by the flesh with God its never like that its faith. There is no verse saying all the gifts have stopped. Its not the perfect has come.. nope we know what it says "when". What does when mean? Same with Paul talking about caught up it was not them or they it was "we which remain".

Again just pick up that bible as if you never read about it heard about.. now read it...read Luke 11 13 you have no other thoughts.. no doubt.. just Christ saying only what the Father said.. God said if I ask for the holy Spirit He will give it? No ifs no buts.. you must be a believer..

He's admitted not being Saved.
No Follower of God should ever consider his opinion on the Bible and specifically the Gifts, because his views come from the Sinful Worldly views.
He literally has no ability to connect the Saved Nature from his Natural Sinful Mind Nature.

To give him breath to continue his lie is being a Fool.

Satan only wins due to ignorance or lack of knowledge.

Giving him life to post is allowing ignorance to breed.

 

[Kavik]

Kavik just disagrees does not believe its still for today by what I read.

Well, since when it comes to something spoken, al Biblical references to "tongues" denote real, rational language(s), obviously they have not ceased.

 

[Kavik]

To give him breath to continue his lie is being a Fool.

Giving him life to post is allowing ignorance to breed.

I hate to state the obvious, but If you're striving to live your life in a Christ-like manner, close-minded comments such as these certainly aren't it.

Perhaps you'd be so kind as to post a small sample (a minute would do it) of your tongues-speech here for analysis.

 

[proutled]

1 Corinthians 14:2

New International Version

2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit.

A lot of it is babble and emotionally driven. Paul makes it clear that unless speaking in tongues edifies and helps others, it's best that those who have this gift keep it between themselves and God.

I have never experienced this personally in all my years of being a Christian. But I'm way too rational, also.

HELLO Silverfox7. I under stand how you feel, that's normal to feel this way, people must have a greater under standing in using spiritual gifts, praying in the spirit is when your bulding up your spiritman, paul call it self edification, so when you go and pray for some one,,your focust then you pray what the holy spirit reveals, your friend just maybe needs to work on her timing,

 

[ResidentAlien]

Tongue-talkers are operating on a whole other level than rational thinking people. They'll say they operate in the "spirit," but this is just a con game they play with themselves. No amount of reasoning can get through to them.

 

[VARob]

Tongue-talkers are operating on a whole other level than rational thinking people. They'll say they operate in the "spirit," but this is just a con game they play with themselves. No amount of reasoning can get through to them.

Cessationists are operating on a whole other level than trying and wanting to do and understand what the Bible says. For some, the fact that God has never forced them to speak in tongues is proof to them that tongues died out with the apostles and anyone claiming to speak in tongues today is spiritually deluded and an emotional basket case. They think they are being reasonable and rational, and nobody can get through to them. They continue to belittle and bash, thinking that their many words makes them right.

 

[Blade]

Tongue-talkers are operating on a whole other level than rational thinking people. They'll say they operate in the "spirit," but this is just a con game they play with themselves. No amount of reasoning can get through to them.

Smith Wigglesworth would always say "my Brother" I always loved yet never do it haha. My bother I know you love the lord and I think you don't mean to offend yet you do. So to you I am just playing some con game with myself. And this is not touching the "whole other level than rational thinking people". Yet it is to me you are speaking to

I try to wonder what else could I have done differently and I come up with nothing. Luke 11:13 you read it.. you do only what the GOD we say we believe in said to do and nothing else. Please share why do you believe John 3:16-17 and believe that yet you read Luke 11;13 and question Him and wont do it. And even things said out side this site.. not the most loving but Christ is being preached.

I have nothing to prove here. He gives always to those that ask and if we have not its because were asking wrong or not asking at all. I also like my elder bother wish all would speak in tongues. Ok so you some disagree on that yet were not doing the other " but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, " Who here that does not believe in the baptism of the sweet holy Spirit is prophesying? It all flows together. I truly believe if something is of God His love will always shine through.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

I hate to state the obvious, but If you're striving to live your life in a Christ-like manner, close-minded comments such as these certainly aren't it.

Perhaps you'd be so kind as to post a small sample (a minute would do it) of your tongues-speech here for analysis.

I'm not here to oblige you for anything at all. You are a charlatan and even a beginner linguist knows you are only baffling the Fools in this thread.

If I was before you I'd say, the Lord Rebuke You!

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

To me you are on Satan's side, been on this Forum how many years and you still don't want to be Saved.

I ain't here to be friends with people like you.

I am here to destroy you and Satan's attempts at your deception.

 

[Gideon300]

problem related to praying in tongues

Matthew 6:6
But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Matt 26:36
Then Jesus came with them to a garden called Gethsemane, and he said to his disciples: "Sit down here while I go and pray yonder."

Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/search?q=pray+garden&translation=all

Praying like in Pentecostal / Charismatic Churches violates the teaching of Jesus above.

Praying in a human language also violates that command. Every meeting I've been to, and I've been saved over 50 years, has some prayer sometime in the meeting, often at the start. So what are you saying? That no one should ever pray in public? Jesus did from time to time. You are taking a verse out of context and applying it incorrectly. Personally, I don't believe that it is appropriate to pray in tongues in meetings, any more than people should pray in their human language during the preaching. The principles are given in 1st Corinthians chapter 14. Study that, and you will get a better understanding.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

kavik, has been here since 2017 and was not Saved then and still not Saved now.

ironic huh, the ones who back his posts, don't have enough God in them for even kavik to be Saved!

that really testifies to who i am actually debating here!