Preterism, Futurism, Historicism 3 Schools of Interpretation
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If upon the second coming of Jesus there would only be Jesus and the Saints then we Saints would be transformed into perfected beings who will no longer sin Thus Jesus would no longer need to rule us with a Rod of Iron.. You need a Rod of Iron if you are ruling faulty human beings who are prone to rebellion..
Some people also believe that Upon the second coming of Jesus, that Jesus will take the Saints to Heaven and they will live there forever and ever.. Again why would The LORD Jesus Need a Rod of Iron to rule over Saints in heaven? No Jesus does not need a Rod of Iron to rule the future perfected Saints on earth or in heaven..
So we can only conclude that Jesus will be ruling faulty people still in their sins state and He will be ruling them on earth.. Because scriptures state ( and i quoted them in my former response ) That Jesus will rule WITH the Saints.. Meaning the Saints will be ruling over other people..
Well i quoted Zachariah 14 which i believe reveals what will be happening during the 1000 year reign of the LORD Jesus on earth ( not in heaven )
No.. The common people during the 1000 years will be in need of the Atonement of the LORD Jesus just as we have needed it since the day Jesus secured it upon the cross..
I don't know about common ordinary sins.. Bit in Zachariah 14 the punishment for those that refuse to make the yearly pilgrimage to Jerusalem will be a terrible judgement..
Well if you are a resurrected Saint at the time you will have no sins.. I don't know if common people will be able to come into the physical presence of The LORD Jesus..
Their reign on Earth only starts when the LORD Jesus returns to Earth to rule it with them..
A little season to God could be 10,000 years to us for as the scriptures say a day is as 1000 years to the Lord and a 1000 years are as a day.. And yeah i believe that it will be a literal 1000 years from the return of jesus till the final /last judgement..
From my reading of the bible there are two Jerusalems. The one here on earth that mankind built. And the one in Heaven above that God built.
There are lots of verses which i have quoted already. You are building an Earthly kingdom and Jesus said (Mat 6:20), But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
The Heavenly kingdom is the one that matters. The earthly will be destroyed.
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
This must be after the destruction of all sin and evil .. verse 4 reasures.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Coming down from God out of heaven mean it was not on earth before this.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
The Holy city above is where i lay my tresure. Like Abraham that by faith believed in the promise of a future kingdom but never seen it in his lifetime, we need to believe in the heavenly kingdom and not trust in the worldly man made things.
There are lots of verses which i have quoted already. You are building an Earthly kingdom and Jesus said (Mat 6:20), But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
The Heavenly kingdom is the one that matters. The earthly will be destroyed.
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
This must be after the destruction of all sin and evil .. verse 4 reasures.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Coming down from God out of heaven mean it was not on earth before this.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
The Holy city above is where i lay my tresure. Like Abraham that by faith believed in the promise of a future kingdom but never seen it in his lifetime, we need to believe in the heavenly kingdom and not trust in the worldly man made things.
Just laws will be enforced without regard to persons. The following is figurative language for the rod of iron
And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. Zechariah 14:16-19
I thought it was asked and answered by ....
that's pretty much what one would expect from a righteous and holy king governing with a righteous and holy army of saints. No corrupt law enforcement, no perversion of justice in the courts. God surely reigns in heaven and earth; but the chain of command is corrupt because men are corrupt; but not so in the millennium.
that's pretty much what one would expect from a righteous and holy king governing with a righteous and holy army of saints. No corrupt law enforcement, no perversion of justice in the courts. God surely reigns in heaven and earth; but the chain of command is corrupt because men are corrupt; but not so in the millennium.
I believe that some of the prophecy of Revelation has already been fulfilled; however, I would not say that most has been fulfilled.
Are you saying/suggesting that all of what the seals, trumpets, and vials represent was fulfilled before 70 A.D.?
Saints were redeemed 'out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation' before 70 A.D.?
Revelation 6:13-17 occurred before 70 A.D.? (I still see stars above in the heavens.)
Every mountain and island moved out of their places - before 70 A.D.?
The Wrath of God was "poured out" upon all of the earth? Before 70 A.D.?
The 144,000 were sealed before 70 A.D.?
The bottomless pit was opened before 70 A.D.?
The locusts came out of the bottomless pit and 'hurt men five months'? Before 70 A.D.?
Were 'the third part of men' killed before 70 A.D.?
Was the 'mystery of God' finished before 70 A.D.? Or, have we been 'in the days of the voice of the seventh angel' since before 70 A.D.?
The Two Witnesses were killed by 'the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit' - before 70 A.D.?
The temple of God was opened in heaven - before 70 A.D.?
The two beasts, the mark of the beast, etc. - before 70 A.D.?
What does history show us - how many were killed for not worshipping the beast?
Jesus stood on the mount with the 144,000 as they sang 'a new song' - before 70 A.D.?
Babylon fell before 70 A.D.?
Revelation 17:16 and Revelation 18:8-19 occurred before 70 A.D.?
These questions only represent a small part of the 'detail' that is in the first 18 chapters.
In making a claim that it all occurred before 70 A.D. - are you able to match each of these things in Revelation prophecy to documented history?
Even if you want to "spiritualize" any-or-all of it - you still need to be able to identify what occurrences in recorded history match those things.
Revelation 13:7 is past history. Revelation 13:8 is future - yet to occur. To understand why, you need to understand God's prophetic time frame.
Do you realize that the scope of some parts of Revelation represents a very long period of time - while, in other parts of it, the scope represents a much shorter period of time? Do you realize that the scope of [both] the prophecy of Revelation and the prophecy of the Olivet Discourse is ~2000 years?
'current' reign? What is that, exactly? There is only one prophetic reign of Christ - the 1000-year reign of Christ - the Millennium.
Therefore, I disagree. Revelation 20 is replete in its 'detail' that the 1000-year reign of Christ is on the earth.
Nothing in that chapter/passage "says" any such of a thing. I believe you are taking it out of context.
Therefore, I disagree.
Are you saying/suggesting that all of what the seals, trumpets, and vials represent was fulfilled before 70 A.D.?
Saints were redeemed 'out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation' before 70 A.D.?
Revelation 6:13-17 occurred before 70 A.D.? (I still see stars above in the heavens.)
Every mountain and island moved out of their places - before 70 A.D.?
The Wrath of God was "poured out" upon all of the earth? Before 70 A.D.?
The 144,000 were sealed before 70 A.D.?
The bottomless pit was opened before 70 A.D.?
The locusts came out of the bottomless pit and 'hurt men five months'? Before 70 A.D.?
Were 'the third part of men' killed before 70 A.D.?
Was the 'mystery of God' finished before 70 A.D.? Or, have we been 'in the days of the voice of the seventh angel' since before 70 A.D.?
The Two Witnesses were killed by 'the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit' - before 70 A.D.?
The temple of God was opened in heaven - before 70 A.D.?
The two beasts, the mark of the beast, etc. - before 70 A.D.?
What does history show us - how many were killed for not worshipping the beast?
Jesus stood on the mount with the 144,000 as they sang 'a new song' - before 70 A.D.?
Babylon fell before 70 A.D.?
Revelation 17:16 and Revelation 18:8-19 occurred before 70 A.D.?
These questions only represent a small part of the 'detail' that is in the first 18 chapters.
In making a claim that it all occurred before 70 A.D. - are you able to match each of these things in Revelation prophecy to documented history?
Even if you want to "spiritualize" any-or-all of it - you still need to be able to identify what occurrences in recorded history match those things.
Revelation 13:7 is past history. Revelation 13:8 is future - yet to occur. To understand why, you need to understand God's prophetic time frame.
Do you realize that the scope of some parts of Revelation represents a very long period of time - while, in other parts of it, the scope represents a much shorter period of time? Do you realize that the scope of [both] the prophecy of Revelation and the prophecy of the Olivet Discourse is ~2000 years?
'current' reign? What is that, exactly? There is only one prophetic reign of Christ - the 1000-year reign of Christ - the Millennium.
Therefore, I disagree. Revelation 20 is replete in its 'detail' that the 1000-year reign of Christ is on the earth.
Nothing in that chapter/passage "says" any such of a thing. I believe you are taking it out of context.
Therefore, I disagree.
GaryA,
[I believe that some of the prophecy of Revelation has already been fulfilled; however, I would not say that most has been fulfilled.
Are you saying/suggesting that all of what the seals, trumpets, and vials represent was fulfilled before 70 A.D.?]
Ok, it is good to agree as much as we can.
[Revelation 6:13-17 occurred before 70 A.D.? (I still see stars above in the heavens.)]
Do you believe that scripture interprets scripture?
Let's consider rev.6 as an example, Then we can look at other ones.
rev.6:
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Let me ask you what you think is being described here?
1] stars of heaven fall to the earth??
2] the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together
3] every mountain and island were moved out of there place
Gary, do you think these events are going to happen literally? If you do, when do you see that happening?
If stars [plural] fall to the earth, would we be burnt up?
Clarify this for me! If this literally happens in Rev.6.....how would all the other events take place?
[I believe that some of the prophecy of Revelation has already been fulfilled; however, I would not say that most has been fulfilled.
Are you saying/suggesting that all of what the seals, trumpets, and vials represent was fulfilled before 70 A.D.?]
Ok, it is good to agree as much as we can.
[Revelation 6:13-17 occurred before 70 A.D.? (I still see stars above in the heavens.)]
Do you believe that scripture interprets scripture?
Let's consider rev.6 as an example, Then we can look at other ones.
rev.6:
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Let me ask you what you think is being described here?
1] stars of heaven fall to the earth??
2] the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together
3] every mountain and island were moved out of there place
Gary, do you think these events are going to happen literally? If you do, when do you see that happening?
If stars [plural] fall to the earth, would we be burnt up?
Clarify this for me! If this literally happens in Rev.6.....how would all the other events take place?
I am wondering why you would even respond to my post with this.. The New Jerusalem that comes out of heaven down to earth does not do so untill the end of the 1000 year reign of the Lord Jesus on earth.. Yes there are two Jerusalems and Jesus will be rule from the earthly Jerusalem for 1000 years and then will be with us in the New Jersualem that will come down out of heaven.. So all this time Jesus will be on earth..
Yes there will be new people born to the normal flesh people who will survive the second coming of the LORD Jesus.. Those who where not saints and who did not take part in the first rasurection / rapture upon Jesus return.. I have already quoted passages in Zackariah 14 verses 16-20 showing exactly the Rod of Iron in action.. The Rod is not for the Saints it is for the nations that survive the tribulation that happens at the time of the Lords Return..