predestination vs freewill

[justpassinthrough]

Here is the reality.
God knows everyone who is born again.
How can He not, as they are a SON<
If not, and you die, then you get this.....>"Depart from me, i never KNEW you". and that verse is speaking to spiritual pretenders who play a game of Christianity, but have never known the new birth.

Jesus said....."you must be born again".

Are angels, sons of God?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Rogerg, I believe that we have no disagreement in our understanding of God's elect, and their eternal deliverance. The salvation scriptures had conflicting meanings to me and did not harmonize because I thought I was smart enough to understand them by my own entelect, until I denied my entelect at 62 years old and the Holy Spirit revealed the truth of the salvation scriptures as being "a deliverance" according to the Greek translation.

I believe the scriptures to teach that there is an eternal deliverance for God's elect, by the death of Jesus for their redemption, and there is a timely deliverance that the elect receive, as they sojourn here on earth, by their good works and repentance of sin by following God's commandments (Which is not eternal deliverance because their eternal deliverance has already been secured)

Because of the timely deliverance is why so many of God's elect believe that their good works are involved in their eternal salvation, because there is a deliverance (salvation that is not eternal) taught as a result of the elect's repentance of sin, and following God's commandments.

I believe Matt 7 of the two gates harmonizes with this truth. God's elect enter both of the gates. The wide gate being those that are believing, and teaching false doctrines because of their lack of knowledge of the mystery of the gospel, and the straight gate being those elect that have denied their own entelect of the scriptures and have been revealed, by the Holy Spirit, the truths that are hidden from the wise and prudent, of God's elect, who have not denied their own entelect, that go into the wide gate. All who enter both gates have security of their inheritance by Jesus's death.

I also believe that the scriptures teach that there will be a greater number who go to heaven than there is that go to hell. The gospel is "good news". We do receive the mercy of God for our sinful nature that we are burdened with, that warfare that we will struggle with until we go to our graves.

God's called pastors are instructed to preach the knowledge of the gospel to his lost sheep (those of God's elect that go into the wide gate) to deliver (save) them from their ignorance of God's righteousness, that he delivering them eternally by his sovereign grace. and not by their good works.

 

[Kidron]

Are angels, sons of God?

Yes and no.

Angels , similar to Lucifer, are/were the "host of heaven".
Lucifer is a specific type of heavenly host, a "Cherub".
These are seen as the 2 you find when you look at a artist's rendition of the "Ark of the Covenant".

-

-
Every angel that appears in the NT is seen as a Male, in human forum, and none have wings.

Angels have free will, and some chose to follow Lucifer, and became "demons".

According to Genesis, Angels can have sexual relations with humans.

Angels are not bound by time and space.

1.) How is a human different from the heavenly host, including Angels?

Genesis says that Man is "created in the image of God" .. made alive by the Spirit of God., and Angels are "ministering Spirits".

Jesus says of mankind......>"ye are gods", and He does not say this about Angels.

Angels can "fall" and are never born again.

"Man"..... are "adamic nature" "fallen" and can be born again.

 

[Kidron]

I believe Matt 7 . God's elect enter both of the gates. The wide gate being those that are believing, .

The wide Gate, according to the NT, is the way to destruction.
You teach it as the way for the "believing".

Take another CAREFUL look.

"""""" wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction"""""

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Forest - you and I usually agree on a lot of Doctrinal points but I have some reservations about a couple you made in this post.

First - I agree with you, that many confuse the understanding of "Positional" versus "Conditional". We both know, one must determine if the verse under study is positional or conditional in it's nature. Not doing so can lead to great error.

I agree, if one stays on the "narrow path" - keeps the ordinances and commandments of the Lord - he will lead a blessed life.

However, I do not agree with your conclusion about the "Gates" of Matthew 7. There is indeed an aspect of "conditional" living mentioned therein but the two contrasting targets: "life" and "Destruction" are both eternal in their scope. Those who enter the narrow gate are those with eternal security. This same group, stays on the "narrow path" because of God given perseverance. Since the beginning of this walk was started by God, it's conclusion is with God. Conversely, those who are walking by their own merits - the broad gate and broad path - are those walking to destruction. The narrow path has to many obstacles and constrictions for those on the broad path. They take one look at it and say: "No Thanks !"

Therefore, Matthew 7:12-14, as I see it, has both a "conditional" aspect in it's teachings and a "positional" aspect as well. Proverbs 4:10-27, is a Divine commentary on what Jesus said here.

Finally, I totally disagree with your statement here:
You said:
"I believe the scriptures to teach that there will be a much greater number that enter heaven than there are that go to hell. The gospel is "good news"

I was surprised you came to this conclusion. God chose Israel, not because it was the largest populated nation. Indeed, it was one of the smallest. Then out of that Nation, God took for himself a "remnant", (Gen.45:7, Isa. 11:11&16, Rom.9:27; 11:5). How large is a "remnant"? By definition, a small percentage of the whole.

When the Lord destroyed the world - How many were saved? Was it not just eight? When He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah - How many were saved there? When the Lord spoke of Salvation, in the Gospels, did He not say "few" would find the way. Are not the Sheep, His Sheep, considered a "Little flock"?

I too, would like to think that more will go to Heaven than Hell but this is not what Scripture teaches. It is a heart wrenching thing to get your head around but we better get in line with what Scripture teaches. It will be a small remnant.

Rom_9:27 And Isaiah cries concerning Israel, If the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that shall be saved:

The Gospel is indeed "Good News". But for whom was the Bible written for? To whom did God reveal His hand. Can you think of one time, in the Old Testament, when God revealed Himself outside of His own, except in judgement. Does not Scripture teach, that everything went to God's Covenant people first? Christ Himself, never left the territory of Israel during His ministry. When the Apostles were sent out to preach the Gospel, their mission was not the people of the world - they were to find the "lost sheep" (John 21:15-17), who were in the world. It is to them, that the Gospel is "Good News". For the rest - they are reading someone elses instruction Book.

Tough words I know but true never the less. Reminds me of this:

John_6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they heard this, said, This is a hard saying; who can hear it?
Joh 6:61 But Jesus knowing in himself that his disciples murmured at this, said unto them, Doth this cause you to stumble?

Jacob, whom God changed his name to be called Israel, is representative of God's elect from every kindred, tongue and nation, not natural Israel. Only a remnant of Jacob/Israel have been revealed the knowledge of God's righteousness through the understanding of the gospel. These are depicted as those that find and enter the straight gate. This remnant, plus the rest of Jacob/Israel (the wide gate) have been secured a home in heaven by Christ's death.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

The wide Gate, according to the NT, is the way to destruction.
You teach it as the way for the "believing".

Take another CAREFUL look.

"""""" wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction"""""

There is destruction in believing and teaching a false doctrine. These, of God's elect, have been born again and believe that God is their spiritual Father, but have not been revealed, by the Holy Spirit within them, that they are delivered by God's sovereign grace, without their good works. These are the ones (the lost sheep, God's elect), that Jesus instructed his apostles to go and preach the knowledge of the gospel to deliver them from their ignorance.

 

[Kidron]

There is destruction in believing and teaching a false doctrine.

Let me give you the simple understanding ....

The "narrow way", is this..... John 14 6. This is Jesus as the only way to the Father.......see ??? that is NARROW, because it THE only way.

The "broad way", as you verse actually teaches......is any OTHER way a person tries to find God, or become like God.
So, the "broad way", that "leads to destruction"...(hell then the lake of fire), is RELIGION, which is man's SELF EFFORT to join God or to ty to become God.

The "narrow way" is the GATE...........this is Jesus, as THE WAY... John 14:6

The "broad way" that leads to DESTRUCTION, ...is everything else, that is Religion. This can be water baptism, and commandment keeping......And why? Because those can't save you, as they are not "THE WAY" to God. John 14:6

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Let me give you the simple understanding ....

The "narrow way", is this..... John 14 6. This is Jesus as the only way to the Father.......see ??? that is NARROW, because it THE only way.

The "broad way", as you verse actually teaches......is any OTHER way a person tries to find God, or become like God.
So, the "broad way", that "leads to destruction"...(hell then the lake of fire), is RELIGION, which is man's SELF EFFORT to join God or to ty to become God.

The "narrow way" is the GATE...........this is Jesus, as THE WAY... John 14:6

The "broad way" that leads to DESTRUCTION, ...is everything else, that is Religion. This can be water baptism, and commandment keeping......And why? Because those can't save you, as they are not "THE WAY" to God. John 14:6

I am sure that this is what you have been taught to believe. There is a simplicity in the scriptures to the remnant of God's elect people who have been revealed the knowledge of God's righteousness through the understanding of the gospel. These are a small portion of God's elect that find this truth by the revelation of the Holy Spirit depicted in the straight gate. These are the ones that believe Jesus saved them from their sins upon the cross by God's sovereign grace, without the help of their good works. John 8:30-32.

 

[Kidron]

I am sure that this is what you have been taught to believe. .

You are talking in circles, with no place to land.

Just go here.......>John 14:6. And BELIEVE that Jesus is THE WAY to God, and that is the "gate" and the "narrow way".
All other ways are the "broad way" that lead to "destruction"...

Its really that simple, ForestGreenCook.

 

[rayzor]

It doesn’t matter what it means to me.Sure it does because god dosen't want anyone perish.I understand your context thought

 

[justpassinthrough]

Yes and no.

Angels , similar to Lucifer, are/were the "host of heaven".
Lucifer is a specific type of heavenly host, a "Cherub".
These are seen as the 2 you find when you look at a artist's rendition of the "Ark of the Covenant".

-

-
Every angel that appears in the NT is seen as a Male, in human forum, and none have wings.

Angels have free will, and some chose to follow Lucifer, and became "demons".

According to Genesis, Angels can have sexual relations with humans.

Angels are not bound by time and space.

1.) How is a human different from the heavenly host, including Angels?

Genesis says that Man is "created in the image of God" .. made alive by the Spirit of God., and Angels are "ministering Spirits".

Jesus says of mankind......>"ye are gods", and He does not say this about Angels.

Angels can "fall" and are never born again.

"Man"..... are "adamic nature" "fallen" and can be born again.

Angels are sons of God.


No two ways about it.


But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Luke 20:35-36

• nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

When we attain the resurrection, we also will be counted as sons of God like the angels.






JPT

 

[Kidron]

When we attain the resurrection, we also will be counted as sons of God like the angels.

JPT

Well here is the thing.
Im a Son of God already, being born again as God's Son, with Christ in me as Proof.
What are you?

 

[rogerg]

I believe the scriptures to teach that there is an eternal deliverance for God's elect, by the death of Jesus for their redemption, and there is a timely deliverance that the elect receive, as they sojourn here on earth, by their good works and repentance of sin by following God's commandments (Which is not eternal deliverance because their eternal deliverance has already been secured)

Hi ForestGreenCook

I have only found one salvation identified in the Bible, and that is of eternal salvation through Christ.
I believe all of the attributes that Christian may come to possess, exhibit and grow in over time, occurs after one becomes saved/born again, and is a result of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. One of those attributes, and possibly the most important one after faith, is a desire to share the true Gospel. So to me, everything, including good works, emanate from, and by, that indwelling. However, to be able to correctly share the true Gospel, it first needs to be placed into our possession (through the Holy Spirit), otherwise we can only know and preach the false gospel.

[Eph 4:21-24 KJV]
21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

[Eph 1:17 KJV]
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

[Gal 5:22-23 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
\23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

[Mat 13:16 KJV]
16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

 

[rogerg]

Because of the timely deliverance is why so many of God's elect believe that their good works are involved in their eternal salvation, because there is a deliverance (salvation that is not eternal) taught as a result of the elect's repentance of sin, and following God's commandments.

Thought these might might be applicable too:

[Luk 17:9-10 KJV]
9 Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.
10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

 

[fredoheaven]

Well here is the thing.
Im a Son of God already, being born again as God's Son, with Christ in me as Proof.
What are you?

What about, I'm a son of God (John 1:12), born again (John 3:3) as God's son, I'm IN Christ as proof.

 

[Icedaisey]

It doesn’t matter what it means to me. What matters is what the author meant and intended, both what God and the man He used meant.

Almost always there were be one interpretation, though there are many applications of a text. The only time there is more than one meaning is in dual fulfillment prophecies.

 

[Icedaisey]

It means precisely what it says. There is no hidden meaning in the verse.

And what does that then mean per your understanding?

 

[Icedaisey]

Here is the reality.
God knows everyone who is born again.
How can He not, as they are a SON<
If not, and you die, then you get this.....>"Depart from me, i never KNEW you". and that verse is speaking to spiritual pretenders who play a game of Christianity, but have never known the new birth.

Jesus said....."you must be born again".

True. And he said this after the names of those sheep he knew by name and wrote in his lambs book of eternal life before he created this world. And we who are his, our names being in that book, know his voice so as to recognize him when he called.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

You are talking in circles, with no place to land.

Just go here.......>John 14:6. And BELIEVE that Jesus is THE WAY to God, and that is the "gate" and the "narrow way".
All other ways are the "broad way" that lead to "destruction"...

Its really that simple, ForestGreenCook.

All scriptures must harmonize in order to see the big pitcher. The way that you interpret John 14:6 will not harmonize.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Thought these might might be applicable too:

[Luk 17:9-10 KJV]
9 Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.
10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

Yes, it is the elect's duty to follow God's commandments, but if we are honest with ourselves, we know, because of our fleshly desires, that we do not always follow his commandments.