predestination vs freewill

[SomeDisciple]

Of course god saves us and not the other way around. Without his intervention we would have nothing to do with him. But that doesn't mean we don't have to answer when he calls. That is a choice that WE make. HE gives us a chance to make the choice, but we still choose to answer or not to answer.

 

[rogerg]

"Then by your logic, Christ can't be the one true and only Savior. A Savior who is unable to grant salvation -- and that in effect is what you're saying-- by any standard can't be considered a Savior.

I don't know why you say that? I said God initiates the knowledge of salvation, reaching out to the world with his free gift. And then, who gets saved is decided by men, who choose either for it or against it. He is still the Savior even though we make the choice."

I said that because you said our salvation is ultimately up to us. Think about it, if it is a free gift (which I believe that it is), then being free would not require anything from its recipient, to include requiring a "decision", otherwise it's not really free.

" It is logically possible then, that if salvation is primarily based upon our actions, that no one, or everyone, might become saved -- both outcomes are possible.
Yes they are. But we also know that some will choose for, and some will choose against. That is determined by a person's inward intuition or predilection. I call it Predestination. "

what does "choose for" mean; what does "choose against " mean? How do you think someone manifests either?

"They are possible because they rest upon our own assessment of our spiritual condition. How can we even be sure whether we've correctly "accepted salvation" (whatever that might mean) ? Please define the criteria that illuminates when it's been achieved.

It is achieved when we prefer to be children of God, and reaches fruit-bearing status only when we begin to obey God's word, to follow God as our only God."

All religions have that same basic tenet in common and believe that they do so. Only one can be correct. So, based upon the criteria you've stated, any of their members regardless of the religion's doctrine, can be saved by following those doctrine.


"It sounds to me like you are describing (whether you realize it or not) that our works are a requirement for salvation. The Bible makes it abundantly clear, however, that we can never be saved by any of our works.
Jesus said that our work is to believe in him, which means to follow him. None of this means we're saved by works. It only means that Jesus alone did the work for our salvation, and that salvation results when we choose to follow him.

John 6.29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

No disrespect intended but Jesus did NOT say that -- you've gotten the interpretation really wrong.
Please, read it again very carefully. It tells us that it is God's work -- the work of God-- that makes anyone believe in Christ. It is NOT our work. We see below that any work we may attempt is accounted by God as debt, not grace.
[Rom 4:4 KJV] 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

 

[rogerg]

Of course god saves us and not the other way around. Without his intervention we would have nothing to do with him. But that doesn't mean we don't have to answer when he calls. That is a choice that WE make. HE gives us a chance to make the choice, but we still choose to answer or not to answer.

Nothing we may do or not do will bring salvation. Salvation is entirely a gift, freely given by God to those whom He has chosen for such.

 

[awelight]

That is slanderously untrue. I believe in Predestination, Grace, and Freewill. All 3 are true and are compatible with each other. You owe the forum an apology on behalf of all those you have just misrepresented, or at worst, slandered.

You sir can believe what you want. However, Scripture does not teach all three as true. Predestination - Yes, Grace - Yes but free will - NO.
As pointed out in my post, the fallen will of man is in bondage to sin. You might want to read the works of Martin Luther - On the bondage of the will. Never have read it myself but I know that Martin Luther thought it was the only book he wrote worth keeping.

As far as an apology goes - no that's not going to happen. I will let God be the judge.

 

[randyk]

The word "men" in the verse represents Christians. God in the Bible, sometimes symbolically uses the word "men" in that manner, otherwise, the verse would be logically incorrect and make no sense. As the Bible warns, to correctly interpret it, we must compare the spiritual with the spiritual

You are saying that the following verse should read as follows?:
Titus 2.11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all [Christians].

You still have a problem, even though that's not what the verse says. If it's only being "offered" to Christians, then Christians are not predestined to salvation against their will--it's being "offered" to them, so that they still have a choice to make.

But it doesn't say "Christians." It says "all men." That means *everybody.* You change the Scriptures to fit your preconceived theology. To you, if it doesn't fit your preconceived theology, it's inconsistent and illogical.

I have a suggestion. Why don't you derive your theology from Scriptures, rather than make it up without considering all of the passages first? Then everything will fit in nicely.

 

[Evmur]

Some non sequitur thinking here. Let me give you a different perspective. Everything you are doing right now--you--is coming by your own choice. Nothing you do is strictly by someone else's choice. But if someone--say your wife--chooses for you to do something, it may be by her choice that you're doing it, but it is also by your choice to comply with her wishes.

It is the same with God's choice for us. He chooses us to make us His. But we choose to accept that choice. We are not without free will--we freely choose to comply with His will.

What the Scriptures are saying is that it is impossible to choose for God if He does not first choose for us. He must precipitate the action. He must start the ball rolling. If he doesn't send His word of salvation to us, there is no word of salvation we can choose to receive.

It is indeed more complicated when it comes to Predestination, and I am in fact Predestinarian. But I also believe in free will. God has a certain number of people He chose to have from before creation, and those people He chose will accept Him. It is in their created nature to want the word that created them.

Those produced beyond this number are like those in Jesus' parable who were planted by an enemy. The farmer did not intend for the tares to be planted, but somehow they got planted. I think people not originally planned by God are the product of human and Satanic interference in God's plan to procreate children through Man. The reproductive process began to churn out children that God never planned, and they choose, by their nature, to act outside of God's word, to be repelled, to some degree, by that word.

But all men were created to be able to respond to God's word, including those not planned by God. As such, God's word reaches out to all men, knowing that some will choose to reject him, but can still respond to His word, acting better or worse, as they choose. Those outside of God's Kingdom can still be punished less or more, based on what they choose to do in this life.

I was raised a Lutheran (am not any long), and Luther was one of the biggest proponents of the "bondage of the will." But Luther, as smart as he was, was inconsistent in his theology, I think. His associate Melanchthon was more open to the idea of free will, as am I.

You do hit the nail on the head when you talk about natures, somebody says freewill is proved by the fact that they choose strawberry ice cream, completely overlooking the fact that God created strawberries and He created the human tongue with taste buds.

If you watch the birds on the pond in spring time of all the variety of wild life and bird species there are yet when mamma duck quacks only her chicks fly into her bosom.

We respond when we hear the Father call [with our inner ear] in the gospel message that comes to us. The devil's crowd will not come except to fight against Him. THAT is how predestiny and election works.

Now I know the preacher is all squealy wealy when he makes his altar call [I do not agree with altar calls] and that's ok but in the spirit world the Father commands us to come and we do come, like when Jesus cried "Lazarus come forth" where was Lazarus's freewill? Jesus commanded "come forth" and he did come forth.

Why do folks bellyache about this? it is the most precious truth in the bible next to salvation itself. It makes my heart sing for joy.

I do have more hope for the crowds who followed Jesus than you do I think, I don't believe, nay I abhor the doctrine of Limited atonement.

 

[Evmur]

I just answered that! I told you that the Savior is the one who initiates the Salvation. What is needed beyond that is for someone to choose to accept that Salvation. You are confusing the work of Salvation, which is Christ's alone, from the result of Christ's work, which is the reception of that salvation. To effectuate salvation *as a result,* people need to accept that salvation!

[/QUOTE]
Yes God does require our amen, first He does the work then He awaits our amen.

 

[rogerg]

You still have a problem, even though that's not what the verse says. If it's only being "offered" to Christians, then Christians are not predestined to salvation against their will--it's being "offered" to them, so that they still have a choice to make.

[Tit 2:11 KJV] 11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

"appeared", not "offered": Only the elect of God are able to perceive the "grace of god" by which salvation is given

An example of the use of the word "men" and "beast":

[1Co 15:32 KJV]
32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.

"men" represents Paul as a Christian, "beasts" represents non-Christians

 

[rogerg]

Yes God does require our amen, first He does the work then He awaits our amen.

I would would state it differently. I would say that as a result of becoming born-again(solely through God's will, of course), its recipient, from/by a mind that has been renewed by the Holy Spirit, will thank God profusely and say amen for it; however that response would be as a RESULT of becoming saved/born-again and in no way its cause.
God alone is the Savior not ourselves. He does not need nor want our acquiescence or permission to impart it to whomever He has chosen for such. In fact, the only appropriate response to God would be "thank you, Father". Should we believe that something(anything) more than Christ is required to become saved, would be to say to God that Christ's offering was insufficient for that which it was intended, and therefore, would be an insult of the highest order to the most high God and to His Christ.

[Heb 2:3 KJV]
3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard [him];

[Heb 7:24-25 KJV]
24 But this [man], because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

 

[rogerg]

In order for the Elect of God to believe upon Jesus Christ as their Savior, He must first change their nature. Even the Elect of God are darkness for a time in their life.

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

 

[rogerg]

I have a suggestion. Why don't you derive your theology from Scriptures, rather than make it up without considering all of the passages first? Then everything will fit in nicely.

Please see post #268

 

[rogerg]

[QUOTE="randyk, post: 4615019, member: 304579"]Jesus said that our work is to believe in him, which means to follow him. None of this means we're saved by works. It only means that Jesus alone did the work for our salvation, and that salvation results when we choose to follow him.

You quoted John 6:29

John 6.29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”[/QUOTE]

I said this:

"No disrespect intended but Jesus did NOT say that -- you've gotten the interpretation really wrong.
Please, read it again very carefully. It tells us that it is God's work -- the work of God-- that makes anyone believe in Christ. It is NOT our work. We see below that any work we may attempt is accounted by God as debt, not grace.
[Rom 4:4 KJV] 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt."


I didn't find a reply from you regarding your incorrect interpretation so I thought I'd repost to give you opportunity to clarify or inform.

 

[Rolly]

There is a tension in my mind in attempt to grasp these. If there is freewill, it means your actions determine your outcome. If there is predestination, it means no matter what you do, you cant alter the outcome. But both above are mentioned in bible, which contradicts one another. Someone pls enlighten me thanks.

In order to address predestination we must first interpret its meaning in relation to its contextual use and implied meaning, the first question to ask then is, when God uses this term are we to understand predestination as conditional or unconditional? can predestination be resisted for example or is it to be forced upon us ? The premise of irresistibility contradicts the freedom to choose, if we’re not free to choose, then love has no value and obedience becomes redundant, We are rewarded when we choose dependency upon God, instead of self, Gods love Grace and promise of salvation is conditional on our participation, yes we are predestined to receive His Grace as we are to be saved through that Grace, and not works, yet we are still required to accept that Grace by accepting Gods authority over us, and in the surrendering of our free will to Him, when we choose to submit to Gods authority we relinquish self determination, and thereby fulfill obedience to His word, an align ourselves with Christ “Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.”
we surrender our will freely in order to accept Gods will for our predestined promise of salvation. Predestination doesn’t contradict free will it’s a promise realised for us when we choose Gods will. as superior to ours.

This Trinitarian step is what’s conditional,

We Must Repent Before God!
We Must Believe in Jesus!
We Will Receive the Holy Spirit!

For the record Eternal security is a lie, every single promise is conditional on our acceptance of it, and obedience to it.

 

[randyk]

You quoted John 6:29

John 6.29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

I said this:

"No disrespect intended but Jesus did NOT say that -- you've gotten the interpretation really wrong.
Please, read it again very carefully. It tells us that it is God's work -- the work of God-- that makes anyone believe in Christ. It is NOT our work. We see below that any work we may attempt is accounted by God as debt, not grace.
[Rom 4:4 KJV] 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt."


I didn't find a reply from you regarding your incorrect interpretation so I thought I'd repost to give you opportunity to clarify or inform.

That's obviously a bad interpretation to me. Jesus is telling his listeners the work *they are to do,* namely to "believe in him.* This isn't just God's work, but more, the work that God requires of us.

 

[randyk]

[Tit 2:11 KJV] 11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

"appeared", not "offered": Only the elect of God are able to perceive the "grace of god" by which salvation is given

An example of the use of the word "men" and "beast":

[1Co 15:32 KJV]
32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.

"men" represents Paul as a Christian, "beasts" represents non-Christians

One is a metaphor, and the other is a statement of fact without use of a metaphor. You *insert a metaphor that isn't there!* The word is "men," and not "Christians." You insert "Christians" to fit your theology.

When I quote Titus 2.11 I'm quoting the NIV:

11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

This is a direct quote. Another translation suggests "brings," in place of "offers," but in context they mean the same thing. Salvation is being brought for the purpose of acceptance--it is an offer.

In my Greek Interlinear the word "offer" isn't actually there, but it used to explain the sense in which the words are being used. But clearly, "all men" is there--not "Christians."

 

[rogerg]

That's obviously a bad interpretation to me. Jesus is telling his listeners the work *they are to do,* namely to "believe in him.* This isn't just God's work, but more, the work that God requires of us.

No way! You're adding to the verse words and implications that flatly aren't there. Very bad idea to do that.
Where do you read that Jesus is saying it is works they are to do?
The "listeners" as you state it, are asking the same question all unsaved ask: what work for salvation must they do.
In the verse, however, Christ corrects them and tells them that there is nothing they can do, that it is all God's work.
You cannot reasonably take the phrase "it is the work of God" and change it into a requirement for them to accomplish

 

[rogerg]

n my Greek Interlinear the word "offer" isn't actually there, but it used to explain the sense in which the words are being used. But clearly, "all men" is there--not "Christians."

nope -"offer" isn't there because it isn't there. However, "appeared" is:

epiphainō (Key)

1. "to show to or upon
   1. to bring to light
2. to appear, become visible

 

[rogerg]

One is a metaphor, and the other is a statement of fact without use of a metaphor. You *insert a metaphor that isn't there!* The word is "men," and not "Christians." You insert "Christians" to fit your theology.

Perhaps to you it's a non-metaphorical fact. Unfortunately, by your interpretation it does not, and cannot, be logically correct nor make sense -- yet we know the Bible is ALWAYS logically perfect because it was written by God. Grace was never offered to all men. It cannot/could not be offered for a variety of reasons, one of which on its face (and as I said in my prior reply to you), is that not every person ever born, will hear/know about it or know it has been "offered". You, yourself, in your reply (I believe) said (paraphrasing) that you weren't sure how salvation could be offered to every man. Therefore, your interpretation makes the verse meaningless. You have to follow the biblical admonition that no verse is of any private interpretation, and of comparing the spiritual with the spiritual to come to a correct interpretation. The Bible cannot be read as any other book is read-- solely right to left, top to bottom, which, in this case, appears to be what you've done. The interpretation I provided in following those rules, makes the verse logically perfect and biblically sound - that only those, and yet all of those, who were intended by God to know of grace, will know of grace. Why? Because it is God Himself who instills it within them on their behalf, so is not dependent upon themselves in any way. Remember, the Bible is its own dictionary, cross reference and self-defines its own terms.
[2Pe 1:18-20 KJV]
18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
(**meaning that no verse can stand solely on its own)

 

[randyk]

No way! You're adding to the verse words and implications that flatly aren't there. Very bad idea to do that.
Where do you read that Jesus is saying it is works they are to do?

As an objective reader, surely you recognize that there are at least 2 ways of reading this? Try to see it the way I'm interpreting it:
John 6.28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?” 29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

Notice that the crowd of Jews wanted to know what *they* are to do. So Jesus told them the work that God wanted them to do. These are the "works God requires." These are not just the *works of God," but in context, the works that God desires the Jews to do.

So you're turning the verse backwards to accommodate your theology. You need your theology to adjust to what Jesus said, and not adjust what Jesus said to accommodate your theology!

The "listeners" as you state it, are asking the same question all unsaved ask: what work for salvation must they do.
In the verse, however, Christ corrects them and tells them that there is nothing they can do, that it is all God's work.
You cannot reasonably take the phrase "it is the work of God" and change it into a requirement for them to accomplish

No, it does *not* say that Jesus corrected their question. The question, quite clearly, and without alteration, is what should *we* do? Jesus didn't correct their question, but answered it: "you are to do the works that God has for you," in other words, the "works of God," which is to believe in God's Son.

I'm quite confident that scholarly commentators would agree with me on this, though I haven't looked it up. Do you have any commentators who would agree with your interpretation?

 

[randyk]

Perhaps to you it's a non-metaphorical fact. Unfortunately, by your interpretation it does not, and cannot, be logically correct nor make sense -- yet we know the Bible is ALWAYS logically perfect because it was written by God.

Surely you understand that you're begging the question--you're assuming your own conclusion? Obviously, if one does not begin with your assumptions, none of this has to be "illogical!"

Grace was never offered to all men. It cannot/could not be offered for a variety of reasons, one of which on its face (and as I said in my prior reply to you), is that not every person ever born, will hear/know about it or know it has been "offered". You, yourself, in your reply (I believe) said (paraphrasing) that you weren't sure how salvation could be offered to every man.

I don't recall saying that? Maybe you're confusing me with someone else? I'm Predestinarian, but I still believe that Christ died for the whole world, including those who choose not to accept him. The knowledge of salvation was therefore offered to the whole world, even knowing that some would reject that knowledge.

Hearing an offer of salvation is not the same thing as accepting it. Offering salvation, and not having all accept it, is not failure on God's part. It just shows His justice, inasmuch as He is impartial with all.

Those who God chose from the beginning will choose to accept Him, if only because God's word accomplishes what it sets out to do. God did not predetermine that all will choose to accept His offer of salvation--He simply offers it to all, knowing some will reject that offer.

Even Christians who choose Christ and are saved have other free choices to make. They can do good things or bad things. Man has free will. But those God chose from the beginning will at the least accept Him, because it is in their predestined nature to do so. But not all free choices have a predestined outcome.