Predestination or free wiil.

[Endoscopy]

Wish more people would get this.

I have heard people say that yeah the jews, they believe in the OT God, they just believe in the Father and dont know Jesus is the MEssiah yet.
Well NO they dont believe in any deity to begin with, lots of them.

I have also heard that they accept the OT and we lose them in matthew 1:1. But in reality we lose them at GENESIS, since many dont even believe in the literal creation story.

Regardless of all this, I still believe there is a future for Israel, according to the book of Romans, and the promises of God in the O.T. Israel has been in unbelief and idolatry before, this is nothing new. They have returned in the past, that is also nothing new!

I visited Israel several times for work. The most popular fast food restaurant serves pork sandwiches. Ml

God's people are so depraved by their sinful nature that sometimes it is hard to distinguish them from the wicked. In some scriptures God's people are referred to as the wicked. To me, there is a difference in God's chastening to correct his children and striking the wicked literally to death. I have no problem in believing that all scriptures must harmonize to be the doctrine that Jesus taught, and I do struggle to try to make them fit together. I hope that I am never guilty of ignoring a, seemingly, contradicting scripture, but study to match scripture to scripture to prove themselves, instead of relying upon the interpretations of men. I love forums like this to help us to study together in search of the true doctrine of Jesus. I lean towards Sodom and Gomorrah being the wicked that are not God's children. I believe that in Lamentations 4, it is talking about God's people, by the phrase "the daughter of my people". May the Lord bless you in your studies.

Get a systematic theology book. They are large and somewhat expensive. They list issues and list all verses related to that issue! That means you can read all of the verses about that issue in contex.

 

[Endoscopy]

You and Preston39, both should consider 1 Cor 2:14 to see what the capabilities of the natural man is. He cannot understand spiritual things until he has been regenerated and given the Holy Spirit. He cannot be placed in a position that will make him able to discern spiritual things. The power to have eternal life is credited totally on God's grace, without man's confessing and accepting. The natural man's new birth is explained in Eph 2, especially in verse 5. When he was yet dead in sins.

One of the times I like the KJV translation. It states the carnal mind is enmity against God. The more modern translations use a more flowery language without the somewhat brutal impact of the KJV.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Do you really believe that you are giving praise and honor to God by limiting his power in NOT giving him total credit for your eternal salvation, and taking credit yourself for your eternal salvation?

More of your obfuscation and distortion.

Please clarify why my belief that God allows mankind to suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18) is the same as my "NOT giving [God] total credit for [my] eternal salvation" and is the same as my "taking credit [myself] for [my] eternal salvation".

I believe that, in your mind, that you have marked me as your enemy and are intent on replying to my comments negatively no matter what I say and that mindset is a sad way to discuss scriptures.

Look, ForestGreenCook, when I reply to your comments and show you what I believe Scripture indicates concerning an issue, that is not me having "marked [you] as [my] enemy". It is me responding to an issue in which I believe you have misconstrued the meaning of Scripture.

And for all your protestation that you do not follow "calvin", you sure do submit posts which are wholly "calvinistic" in nature. And I am not the only person on the forum to have pointed this out to you.

I don't suppose you can see yourself in Ephesians 4:29-31, No! I did not think so.

I have endeavored to address issues you have raised. I have countered with Scripture and I believe I have been respectful toward you. If you believe I have treated you disrespectfully, please provide the post submitted by me wherein you believe you were disrespected. Thank you.

 

[Endoscopy]

More of your obfuscation and distortion.

Please clarify why my belief that God allows mankind to suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18) is the same as my "NOT giving [God] total credit for [my] eternal salvation" and is the same as my "taking credit [myself] for [my] eternal salvation".





Look, ForestGreenCook, when I reply to your comments and show you what I believe Scripture indicates concerning an issue, that is not me having "marked [you] as [my] enemy". It is me responding to an issue in which I believe you have misconstrued the meaning of Scripture.

And for all your protestation that you do not follow "calvin", you sure do submit posts which are wholly "calvinistic" in nature. And I am not the only person on the forum to have pointed this out to you.





I have endeavored to address issues you have raised. I have countered with Scripture and I believe I have been respectful toward you. If you believe I have treated you disrespectfully, please provide the post submitted by me wherein you believe you were disrespected. Thank you.

You two are arguing the quinquarticular controversy issue. Calvinism vs Arminianism. They are both Biblical!!

Quinquarticular Controversy
The diametrically opposed Calvinist and Armenian 5 points

Reformed/Calvinism
TULIP
1. Total depravity
2. Unconditional election
3. Limited atonement
4. Irresistible grace
5. Perserverance of the Saints

Armenianism
1. Free will or Human ability
2. Conditional election
3. Universal Redemption or General Atonement
4. The Holy Spirit can be Effectually Resisted
5. Falling from Grace

For a deeper discussion of the differences go to these web sites,

https://www.gotquestions.org/Calvinism-vs-Arminianism.html

Arminianism vs Calvinism Controversial Passages
https://www.xenos.org/essays/calvinism-arminianism-controversial-passages

There are denominations adhering to Calvinism, Arminianism, and parts of each creating a spectrum of different views of these issues.

 

[RDK]

Gotcha! Thats the standard calvinist strategy. Unfortunately, it makes God the author of evil as well.
The westminster confession of faith states God is NOT the author of sin, yet that is exactly what it teaches.
What a mess that thing is.

The sky is blue. But the sky is NOT blue. Get a hold of that.

Could you refute my point in post #329
WHy does God command repentance, obedience, to humble ourselves, if we have no ability to do so? Isnt that what the wicked servants of Pharaoh did in the Exodus verses I quoted? Command bricks without giving straw!

God does explain that He is the author of evil too.Isaiah 45-7, I make peace and create evil. Judges 3-12 God strengthened an evil king against Israel. Isaiah 54-16, I have created the waster to destroy.

 

[trofimus]

One of the times I like the KJV translation. It states the carnal mind is enmity against God. The more modern translations use a more flowery language without the somewhat brutal impact of the KJV.

ψυχικὸς δὲ ἄνθρωπος
animalistic man

The type of person who is driven by his animal body given by evolution, by low instincts, unable to look up higher and further than behind his immediate pleasure, instincts and materialism. Without ability to understand spiritual, invisible realm.

 

[Endoscopy]

Wish more people would get this.

I have heard people say that yeah the jews, they believe in the OT God, they just believe in the Father and dont know Jesus is the MEssiah yet.
Well NO they dont believe in any deity to begin with, lots of them.

I have also heard that they accept the OT and we lose them in matthew 1:1. But in reality we lose them at GENESIS, since many dont even believe in the literal creation story.

Regardless of all this, I still believe there is a future for Israel, according to the book of Romans, and the promises of God in the O.T. Israel has been in unbelief and idolatry before, this is nothing new. They have returned in the past, that is also nothing new!

I have been to Israel on several occasions for work. I agree with you judgement of the population. That being said the adherents to Judaism have a disproportionate power in the country.

 

[trofimus]

I have been to Israel on several occasions for work. I agree with you judgement of the population. That being said the adherents to Judaism have a disproportionate power in the country.

I have seen some various common people in the streets of Israel answering what they think about Jesus.

So crazy, diverse and unbelievable answers... you cannot find such blindness anywhere in the world.

 

[Endoscopy]

ψυχικὸς δὲ ἄνθρωπος
animalistic man

The type of person who is driven by his animal body given by evolution, by low instincts, unable to look up higher and further than behind his immediate pleasure, instincts and materialism. Without ability to understand spiritual, invisible realm.

Referring to evolution on a Christian site? Evolution is not a proven science for starters. In fact the latest evidence demonstrates that DNA resists that kind of change.

 

[trofimus]

Evolution is not a proven science for starters. In fact the latest evidence demonstrates that DNA resists that kind of change.

If you do not see how your animal body fights against the spirit in you, I cannot help you to believe it... but the verse says "animal/istic man", this is a fact.

Referring to evolution on a Christian site?

Evolution is accepted by the majority of Christians worldwide.

 

[Endoscopy]

I have seen some various common people in the streets of Israel answering what they think about Jesus.

So crazy, diverse and unbelievable answers... you cannot find such blindness anywhere in the world.

I also post on a political site and see that blindness there!

 

[Endoscopy]

If you do not see how your animal body fights against the spirit in you, I cannot help you to believe it... but the verse says "animal/istic man", this is a fact.


Evolution is accepted by the majority of Christians worldwide.

Not Christians that take the Bible as the word of God. Genesis describes the creation account with God creating all of the different kinds of plants and animals! Science also has been unable to prove evolution happens. In fact DNA has been found to resist that kind of change! Archaeologists have found the Cambrian explosion of a huge number of animals appearing at the same time. Oops for evolution.

 

[trofimus]

Not Christians that take the Bible as the word of God. Genesis describes the creation account with God creating all of the different kinds of plants and animals! Science also has been unable to prove evolution happens. Archaeologists have found the Cambrian explosion of a huge number of animals appearing at the same time. Oops for evolution.

How do you define "the word of God" in a situation in which we live in a different culture, different usage of words and themes, in which we do not even know certainly in which form were such ancient texts inspired?

To study and to think does not mean not to be a Christian. There are various possible views, not just american evangelical literalist approach.

 

[Endoscopy]

How do you define "the word of God" in a situation in which we live in a different culture, different usage of words and themes, in which we do not even know certainly in which form were such ancient texts inspired?

To study and to think does not mean not to be a Christian. There are various possible views, not just american evangelical literalist approach.

As a true Christian we believe the Bible is the inspired word of God and was written by men inspired by God! Your comment on the face of it is not a Christian concept. Are you a Christian or a wolf in sheep's clothing?

 

[NayborBear]

You and Preston39, both should consider 1 Cor 2:14 to see what the capabilities of the natural man is. He cannot understand spiritual things until he has been regenerated and given the Holy Spirit. He cannot be placed in a position that will make him able to discern spiritual things. The power to have eternal life is credited totally on God's grace, without man's confessing and accepting. The natural man's new birth is explained in Eph 2, especially in verse 5. When he was yet dead in sins.

Oh! I see where you're at now! Yer one of them Cessesionists tradition of man "group" of practitioners. Yanno? "God in a box!" Milky's, where terms such as "Foreknowing', and "Predestination" and "Elect", are "PASTEURIZE!" (get it?....PAST-YER-EYES)

And, you respond with that which the "natural man" CAN'T receive from God?

Sounds to me like you are speaking from the "natural man" POV!

Allow me, if you will, in giving you a verse or two to consider!

Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Hebrews 4
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
12 For the Word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

Jesus Christ is the "sheep gate", into the "sheep pen!" And? The "natural man", might well think, he has "done it all", in his believing and accepting of Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior!

Yet? This same Jesus Christ HAS a Father!

And, a GOD!

Meaning? There is a whole lot to the "Governmental Structure", of the Kingdom of God, and Kingdom of Light, that is added unto one, should they seek after the Kingdom of God, and, HIS Righteousness!

One MUST be "born from above", or "Spiritually Regenerated", I guess is the "popular" term these days, to even SEE the Kingdom of God! (John 3:3)

Skipping verse 4, and going to verse 5? Is where one starts judging angels, in ones' ALLOWING God in His (for lack of better term usage) "Vetting Process", in His "ATTEMPTS", to separate the "natural man's" spirit (born of water), from the "natural man's" flesh! (which is born of lust). And, where those 2 passages, I provided, are EMPLOYED! On ones' "attempts" at entering the Kingdom of God!

But, for the "milky cessessionists?" Ya just can't "describe", let alone "connect the dots" in scripture, in something one has never gone through! (meaning?) "PASTEURIZE!"

 

[p_rehbein]

I don't see the point in the discussion.......it's kinda silly, isn't it?

I mean.........IF you believe in predestination......you were predestined to.......if you don't, you had the free will not to.

IF you believe in free will.....you were predestined to........if you don't, you had the free will not to.

The argument is moot at best..........but, shoot, it does pass the time I suppose.........and, of course, you were all predestined to be here posting all these comments of your own free will.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I visited Israel several times for work. The most popular fast food restaurant serves pork sandwiches. Ml
Get a systematic theology book. They are large and somewhat expensive. They list issues and list all verses related to that issue! That means you can read all of the verses about that issue in contex.

I have a "bible study disk" in my computer. If I insert a word, or a phrase, it will list the scriptures in the whole bible that uses that word. It also has a toggle to the Greek interpretation of the word. I find it very helpful.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Oh! I see where you're at now! Yer one of them Cessesionists tradition of man "group" of practitioners. Yanno? "God in a box!" Milky's, where terms such as "Foreknowing', and "Predestination" and "Elect", are "PASTEURIZE!" (get it?....PAST-YER-EYES)

And, you respond with that which the "natural man" CAN'T receive from God?

Sounds to me like you are speaking from the "natural man" POV!

Allow me, if you will, in giving you a verse or two to consider!

Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Hebrews 4
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
12 For the Word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

Jesus Christ is the "sheep gate", into the "sheep pen!" And? The "natural man", might well think, he has "done it all", in his believing and accepting of Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior!

Yet? This same Jesus Christ HAS a Father!

And, a GOD!

Meaning? There is a whole lot to the "Governmental Structure", of the Kingdom of God, and Kingdom of Light, that is added unto one, should they seek after the Kingdom of God, and, HIS Righteousness!

One MUST be "born from above", or "Spiritually Regenerated", I guess is the "popular" term these days, to even SEE the Kingdom of God! (John 3:3)

Skipping verse 4, and going to verse 5? Is where one starts judging angels, in ones' ALLOWING God in His (for lack of better term usage) "Vetting Process", in His "ATTEMPTS", to separate the "natural man's" spirit (born of water), from the "natural man's" flesh! (which is born of lust). And, where those 2 passages, I provided, are EMPLOYED! On ones' "attempts" at entering the Kingdom of God!

But, for the "milky cessessionists?" Ya just can't "describe", let alone "connect the dots" in scripture, in something one has never gone through! (meaning?) "PASTEURIZE!"

If you are trying to explain the nature and abilities of the natural man in 1 Cor 2:14, YOU DID NOT.

 

[Lillywolf]

If you do not see how your animal body fights against the spirit in you, I cannot help you to believe it... but the verse says "animal/istic man", this is a fact.


Evolution is accepted by the majority of Christians worldwide.

There's also a category called, Theistic Evolution. The Darwinian atheistic evolutionary theory is but one branch of evolutionary thought.

 

[preacher4truth]

Evolution is accepted by the majority of Christians worldwide.

With what the majority of Christians believe to be truth today, I wouldn't see that as a glaring endorsement suggesting the truth of the matter. Just take a look at what is believed on this site alone.


Also: https://thestateoftheology.com/