Predestination or free wiil.

[RDK]

What is most difficult to understand is how anyone is able to confuse our being foreknown from this age when we come to God and He saves us by the Blood of the Lamb.

What is even more difficult to understand is how anyone coud think of a lving heavenly Father Who would subject His children to this age and all the pain and suffering it contains knowing full well in advance just what they would do and how they would react to Jesuchrist.

This latter describes Satan and not our Father Who loves us and is allowing us to choose to come home to Him.

Why did God allow evil in this world unless He knew that we had something really important for us to experience. Jesus gave us the answer to this in His parable of the prodigal son, Luke 15-11 to the chapters end. Since this is representative of someone who was lost in the world but forgiven and received back by the Father, Jesus has given us this lesson to show what happens to the person who has been forgiven. This Father who let His child leave the comforts of home knew one major value that the remaining son could not value-appreciation. Nothing changed for the son who stayed, but to the son who lost everything learned to value those things he lost, but were later restored. This is like us not valuing the need for a doctor until we become sick. We can't value forgiveness until we fall. We can't really value how much more that it appears that God loves us since we had fallen. God knows this and has allowed evil to exist because the new birth is worth the pain and the wait, John 16-21. This is like a similar parable that I heard: When do you know the strength of a soap cleaner but when you have washed something clean, or the most dirty thing that you can find. Jesus is the soap.
When do you value a feast the most, after you have just eaten, or when you have not eaten at all. Your value for something which does not change is valued the most by our distance from it.
We could not value the gift of salvation and love until we first suffered distance from Him, that love being eternal for us. Evil is designed to be done away, and all will be restored.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

If I understand correctly you believe there are 2 kind of salvation

1. Salvation on earth

2. Eternal salvation.

You believe salvation on earth need our faith, but eternal salvation do not need our faith. Am I correct?

Base on what you believe, eternal salvation do not need our faith, is that mean Islam that do not have faith in Jesus can be have eternal salvation? Give me a verse.

Can you explain more about what is salvation on earth and give me a verse about what is salvation on earth?

The natural man ,as described in 1 Cor 2:14, cannot discern spiritual things, until he has been regenerated (make alive spiritually) when God regenerates us, he gives us the Holy Spirit, which gives us spiritual life. Faith is a fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5), so we then have faith, after we are regenerated. After we have been regenerated, when we pray to God for healing of a sickness we have, and he heals us of our illness, we have received a salvation (a deliverance). When Jesus gave sight to the blind man, he received a salvation (a deliverance). In a covenant relationship we were saved (delivered) eternally. We were then fiscally saved (delivered) when God regenerated us (Eph 2:5). When we repent of a sin, after regeneration, and God forgives us of that sin, we have been saved (delivered) of that sin. Believing is not the cause of us being saved (delivered) eternally, but is evidence that we have already been regenerated (saved). In Acts 2:36-40, is an example of an unbeliever not having faith in Jesus, at the time of his death on the cross and being saved (delivered) of that sin when he was converted to see the truth of Jesus under the preaching of Peter. These men in Acts were already born of the Spirit, or they would not have been PRICKED in their hearts. The natural man, void of the Spirit, conscience cannot be pricked. The SAVE in verse 40 is an example of a timely deliverance that we can have here on earth.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

The words "faith of Jesus Christ" are translated from the Greek words pisteōs Christou Iēsou.

The word "of" was added by the translators.

The NIV, NLT, ESV, ASV, ERV all render the words pisteōs Christou Iēsou as "faith in Jesus Christ".

If you want to translate it to mean that man plays a part in his eternal salvation by his works, there is nothing I can say to make you understand, but maybe, some day the Holy Spirit within you will reveal it to you, but not until you deny yourself.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The natural man ,as described in 1 Cor 2:14, cannot discern spiritual things, until he has been regenerated (make alive spiritually) when God regenerates us, he gives us the Holy Spirit, which gives us spiritual life. Faith is a fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5), so we then have faith, after we are regenerated. After we have been regenerated, when we pray to God for healing of a sickness we have, and he heals us of our illness, we have received a salvation (a deliverance). When Jesus gave sight to the blind man, he received a salvation (a deliverance). In a covenant relationship we were saved (delivered) eternally. We were then fiscally saved (delivered) when God regenerated us (Eph 2:5). When we repent of a sin, after regeneration, and God forgives us of that sin, we have been saved (delivered) of that sin. Believing is not the cause of us being saved (delivered) eternally, but is evidence that we have already been regenerated (saved). In Acts 2:36-40, is an example of an unbeliever not having faith in Jesus, at the time of his death on the cross and being saved (delivered) of that sin when he was converted to see the truth of Jesus under the preaching of Peter. These men in Acts were already born of the Spirit, or they would not have been PRICKED in their hearts. The natural man, void of the Spirit, conscience cannot be pricked. The SAVE in verse 40 is an example of a timely deliverance that we can have here on earth.

Anyone else have an issue with this?

1. It has us being made alive “In Sin”
2. it has the Holy Spirit entering us while we are still “In sin”
3. It has us repenting and comeing to God in faith asking God to forgive us of our sin AFTER we are already born again.
4. It has man SAVED before his sin is forgiven.

is this what scripture teaches?

What purpose does the HS have to convict the world if we just in a moment of time all of a sudden understand the gospel 100% and know we are sinners and need a savior? Seems like the HS does not do much to draw people to Christ. All he has to do is regenerate him. No need to convict people at all..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If you want to translate it to mean that man plays a part in his eternal salvation by his works, there is nothing I can say to make you understand, but maybe, some day the Holy Spirit within you will reveal it to you, but not until you deny yourself.

She is not preaching savation by works, You would be best suited to stop slandering people. And start to understand what they are saying.

 

[John146]

Anyone else have an issue with this?

1. It has us being made alive “In Sin”
2. it has the Holy Spirit entering us while we are still “In sin”
3. It has us repenting and comeing to God in faith asking God to forgive us of our sin AFTER we are already born again.
4. It has man SAVED before his sin is forgiven.

is this what scripture teaches?

What purpose does the HS have to convict the world if we just in a moment of time all of a sudden understand the gospel 100% and know we are sinners and need a savior? Seems like the HS does not do much to draw people to Christ. All he has to do is regenerate him. No need to convict people at all..

You're saved before you even know it.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

If you want to translate it to mean that man plays a part in his eternal salvation by his works, there is nothing I can say to make you understand, but maybe, some day the Holy Spirit within you will reveal it to you, but not until you deny yourself.

I merely pointed out that the word "of" was added to the verse by the KJV translators, and some versions translate the words pisteōs Christou Iēsou in Gal 2:16 as "faith in Jesus Christ" as opposed to "faith of Jesus Christ" as shown in the KJV.

That you conclude my clarification of what is written in the Greek to mean I "want to translate it to mean that man plays a part in his eternal salvation by his works" is nothing but blustering on your part because you are unable to invalidate the fact that the word "of" was added to the text.

Rather than address the point that the word "of" was added to the text, you turn to ad hominem attack.

What's up with that???

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I merely pointed out that the word "of" was added to the verse by the KJV translators, and some versions translate the words pisteōs Christou Iēsou in Gal 2:16 as "faith in Jesus Christ" as opposed to "faith of Jesus Christ" as shown in the KJV.

That you conclude my clarification of what is written in the Greek to mean I "want to translate it to mean that man plays a part in his eternal salvation by his works" is nothing but blustering on your part because you are unable to invalidate the fact that the word "of" was added to the text.

Rather than address the point that the word "of" was added to the text, you turn to ad hominem attack.

What's up with that???

I tried to explain to him that OF was not a set in stone interpretation by the passage itself and the fact the word was added also. He made the-same strawman attack of me..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You're saved before you even know it.

Wonder what that feels like, since I have never experienced it (I guess I am not saved)

One moment I am a sinner, totally unable to understand anything about Jesus even his death on the cross. Or the fact that I am a sinner and deserving of condemnation. I have no desire to have christ, I am his enemy, and the mere thought of recieving him makes me sick as I give him the finger and tell him where to put his gospel.

A second later, it is like a light came on. And all spiritual knowledge is all of a sudden given to me, where I have complete understanding, I suddenly want to recieve christ, I close my fist and stop giving God the finger and telling him where he can put his gift, and ask him to give that gift to me. I get on my knees and I ask him to come into my life (even though he already did)

Yeah, that makes total sense.

 

[Hevosmies]

You're saved before you even know it.

Its not like that in calvinism.

IM not a calvinist but how they teach it is:

You are first REGENERATED, and while we may consider regeneration, new birth, salvation, all the same package. They dont.

So you are first regenerated and then you are able and willing to have faith, at which point you are then saved and sealed unto the day of redemption.

The proof-text for this that they use is
1 John 5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.

 

[Jackson123]

The natural man ,as described in 1 Cor 2:14, cannot discern spiritual things, until he has been regenerated (make alive spiritually) when God regenerates us, he gives us the Holy Spirit, which gives us spiritual life. Faith is a fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5), so we then have faith, after we are regenerated. After we have been regenerated, when we pray to God for healing of a sickness we have, and he heals us of our illness, we have received a salvation (a deliverance). When Jesus gave sight to the blind man, he received a salvation (a deliverance). In a covenant relationship we were saved (delivered) eternally. We were then fiscally saved (delivered) when God regenerated us (Eph 2:5). When we repent of a sin, after regeneration, and God forgives us of that sin, we have been saved (delivered) of that sin. Believing is not the cause of us being saved (delivered) eternally, but is evidence that we have already been regenerated (saved). In Acts 2:36-40, is an example of an unbeliever not having faith in Jesus, at the time of his death on the cross and being saved (delivered) of that sin when he was converted to see the truth of Jesus under the preaching of Peter. These men in Acts were already born of the Spirit, or they would not have been PRICKED in their hearts. The natural man, void of the Spirit, conscience cannot be pricked. The SAVE in verse 40 is an example of a timely deliverance that we can have here on earth.

Let back to the question

You say to be earthly save we need our faith

For eternal salvation we do not need our faith but Christ faith.

What do you mean by earth salvation?

Than you say to be save God must regenerate us.

John 3:16 say whosoever believe will be save.

How you explain john 3:16

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I tried to explain to him that OF was not a set in stone interpretation by the passage itself and the fact the word was added also. He made the-same strawman attack of me..

Typical poor debate tactic. Attack the person rather than deal with the issue at hand.

All it does is reveal his inability to support his dogma.

 

[Hevosmies]

John 3:16 say whosoever believe will be save.

How you explain john 3:16

Im not a calvinist but here is the deal:

the whosoever believes is the elect. because John 6:44 no man can come unless Father draws and God will raise them up at the last day.

The deal with calvinism is that its logically an airtight package. You can never pin these guys down on anything, its an ever moving goalpost.
Once you get them to struggle to explain a couple of verses, they revert to philosophical arguments like "Is faith pleasing to God? Well yeah, so therefore nobody can believe unless God grants them because it says no one in the flesh can do anything to please God" and so on.

This is the reason they love to debate, because they always win by default. The rest of us have no moving goalposts, we have to dig our heels into free will. They say they believe in "free will" as does Matt Slick, while at the same time denying free will, and teaching predestination. Its a "free will within the sinful nature" kind of deal.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Typical poor debate tactic. Attack the person rather than deal with the issue at hand.

All it does is reveal his inability to support his dogma.

Seems to be a tactic many (not all) use. Every time you debate this topic with one or some of them. I can only think of one person in here who has not done this, and I love him as a brother. Idisagree, but we do nto attack each other aimlessly and cause division.

 

[John146]

Its not like that in calvinism.

IM not a calvinist but how they teach it is:

You are first REGENERATED, and while we may consider regeneration, new birth, salvation, all the same package. They dont.

So you are first regenerated and then you are able and willing to have faith, at which point you are then saved and sealed unto the day of redemption.

The proof-text for this that they use is
1 John 5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.

Actually, a true Calvinist believes they were in Christ before the foundation of the world. Somehow they fell out of Christ at the fall of Adam, and got back into Christ upon believing the gospel.

 

[Hevosmies]

Actually, a true Calvinist believes they were in Christ before the foundation of the world. Somehow they fell out of Christ at the fall of Adam, and got back into Christ upon believing the gospel.

Seriously? Wow thats weird. I wish some calvinist could confirm this.

 

[trofimus]

Actually, a true Calvinist believes they were in Christ before the foundation of the world. Somehow they fell out of Christ at the fall of Adam, and got back into Christ upon believing the gospel.

"For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight."
Eph 1:4

If you mean this, then its just a verse from the Bible, not specifically calvinistic.

 

[John146]

"For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight."
Eph 1:4

If you mean this, then its just a verse from the Bible, not specifically calvinistic.

Notice what it does not say: it does not say he chose us to be in him. Calvinists like to rewrite the Bible to fit their agenda. The spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in v3 is the context. These blessing were placed in Christ. God would choose to give these heavenly blessings to those in him, in Christ. The word "according" at the beginning of v4 put the context back to the previous verse.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Notice what it does not say: it does not say he chose us to be in him. Calvinists like to rewrite the Bible to fit their agenda. The spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in v3 is the context. These blessing were placed in Christ. God would choose to give these heavenly blessings to those in him, in Christ. The word "according" at the beginning of v4 put the context back to the previous verse.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

granted, it may not say it chose us to "BE" in him, but it has the same meaning. there is no difference

And it also says what he chose us to be, Holy and without blame in Love.

when? From before the foundation of the world

 

[preston39]

You're saved before you even know it.

J...,

Saved .......or...born again? You will know it when you are saved...G-d will tell you ...after He judges you. Until then we are...born again.