Predestination is misunderstood...

[Genez]

And get off his lawn.

Its not his lawn...

There is only one lawn I am interested in....

"He makes me lie down in green pastures; he leads me beside still waters." ​

​

.........​

 

[Rufus]

Based on your post you linked to, it appears people think the "your sons" are Jesus' disciples because of the judgment that follows but I always saw that passage as it was the demons who would judge the false teachers (the ones accusing Jesus of doing the devils work).

Luke 11:19
19 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they (the demons) will be your judges.

My reasoning is twofold.

1. I don't recall anywhere in scripture where it speaks of believers judging unbelievers.
2. The example we have in Acts below.

Acts 19:14-16
14 Also there were seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, who did so. 15 And the evil spirit answered and said, “Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?” 16 Then the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, overpowered them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.

1 Cor 6:1-3
6:1 If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints? 2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!
NIV

 

[Cameron143]

Its not his lawn...

There is only one lawn I am interested in....

"He makes me lie down in green pastures; he leads me beside still waters." ​

​

.........​

You can have that now

 

[sawdust]

At one point you stated "Maybe who the "sons" are is not really that important to Jesus' argument." I do not believe these are idle words.

I don't think I said that. As far as I'm concerned the "sons" are those who relate to those teaching that Jesus is doing the works of the Devil.

We most likely need someone well versed in Greek grammar and syntax to see whether the demons or the sons are the subject of verse 19.

 

[Genez]

1 Cor 6:1-3
6:1 If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints? 2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!
NIV

Judge the world when Jesus assigns us to reign with Him for the Millennium. It won't be for their final judgment.

Right now we are having a hard time with each other because there are too much bad and misleading teachings
to be found. When Paul wrote 1 Cor 6:1-3 ? The apostles were in control. Everyone was working with good sound teaching.
Today its become a free for all with believers in too many cases.

There stands the problem.

 

[Genez]

You can have that now

Right....

And?

Take one. Its free....
........

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I don't think I said that.

no, you did not state that. I should have clarified that Post 6802 was my reply to studier.

Apologies for any confusion due to my inadvertence ...

As far as I'm concerned the "sons" are those who relate to those teaching that Jesus is doing the works of the Devil.

in agreement.

We most likely need someone well versed in Greek grammar and syntax to see whether the demons or the sons are the subject of verse 19.

right ... it is an interesting point to ponder ... (to me at least )
.

 

[maxamir]

Generally speaking, I don't see the error being not putting Him first. I don't see all disagreements in Theology being a lack in allegiance to Jesus Christ. Things were hard to understand in the first century and some things remain hard to understand. There is certainly something wrong, but I think we're hard-pressed to be saying that everyone who disagrees with us lacks allegiance to Christ or does not have the Spirit, or is some agent for the adversary.

This doesn't mean I think everything goes, which is why I mentioned checking foundations first. Paul for instance levied his harshest attack towards those who would seek to destroy one's foundation and pull them from Christ and Grace and the new era in Christ.

So, I'm not a pacifist at the end of all of this, but, in truth, I've become more settled in my faith. No matter what I know or don't know, I know Him - I understand who He is, I believe in Him and understand that Biblical Faith apart from submission is nonsense, I understand what He's done for us, and what He's doing for us as He takes us individually and corporately to a telos for all His Creation, and in faith I am submitted to Him and His plan and process. His Father is my Father and He - Jesus YHWH's Christ - is my firstborn brother and Lord and everything His Word says He is.

Men are still crazy. Entering into Christ and having His Spirit doesn't make men uncrazy in an instant - maybe for an instant - but then the process begins. It takes a lot of time and a lot of focused work to make us more and more uncrazy. There's a lot of crazy on these forums and a lot of denominational antagonism. If I were an unbeliever reading this I'd see little value in Christianity. Honestly, I've come to see little to no value in what some to many men think Christianity is.

In some ways, we're not going to completely know Him and who we are in Him until we see Him as He is. So we or I at least just keep moving forward and growing in His grace and knowledge until our individual telos or until He brings it all to its telos. Part of the task is to rest in Him while collaborating with Him at His pace for us rather than ours. It's a blend of a tension in His Word of striving and giving it our all while resting in Him. There are a lot of such tensions in the Text. Epignosis is a practical knowledge, and experiential knowledge and we may think we know things but we really don't until we do. There's Life and then Abundant Life and there is a difference between the two.

many here have a sure knowledge of God but knowledge that comes by simple mental assent is not the knowledge that the Scriptures speak of that God grants to His people. True knowledge in God is based in a sincere love to Him and His people. Seek Him and His truth in this love and He guarantees to lead you all the way.

Jer_29:13 And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart.

 

[maxamir]

He's also Christ and King of kings which the foundational Psalm 2 makes clear. And then we can begin dealing with the rest of who He is and that Biblical Faith in Him is more than a 1Cor15 gospel (which I'm not saying to open up that debate).

Agreed, 1 Cor 15:1-4 was written to those who knew who Christ is and it is foolish to talk to people about Christ without describing who He is and declaring Him to be truly God and truly Man. Therefore no one can truly know Christ unless they are granted to first know who God and man truly are.

 

[maxamir]

Thanks for this!

Nicely stated. As far as we've gotten to so far, we look to be aligned to a fair degree.

What's "PTS 2016" (bottom right corner)? Where did this come from?

This graphic looks to be well stated. I haven't gone through the referenced Scriptures yet. It seems to be one of the best overviews of the Law of Christ I've seen, which Law has to be a summation of the whole, rather than just a distinct separation from all that has gone before. It seems to properly take into account references like 2Tim3:16-17, which I see referenced but I'd add 3:15 to make certain we get the "wise for salvation" statement, and 1Tim1:8, which I don't see referenced, but is likely interpreted to be in the entirety of what's stated. If more of us could grasp this maybe we'd have less disagreement and more understanding of how to use OC Law properly under Grace in the NC era with the Law of its Mediator, Great High Priest, etc...

I jumped into reading and listening to some NCT actually in following up on something recommended on a forum. I had been mostly separated from outside input for many years and just focused on the Word in Spirit. I was a bit surprised that some or many of NCT conclusions were similar to or the same as some I had come to in my own studies away from all the noise and interpretations.

What do you read or who do you hear re: NCT? What I've read and listened to I'm not in full agreement with, but my agreement has been surprisingly higher than I thought it could be. I've communicated with one man in England who found his way into agreement with it to whatever degree he would say he has.

PTS is Providence Theological Seminary and they have much for you to read about NCT on their resources page below.

NCT Resources

There is currently no uniform NCT confession and not all NCT adherents including myself agree with all things below but there is a general agreement on most things.

 

[maxamir]

Awesome! You sound a lot like David H. Gay.

I would agree with most things he says and highly recommend his ministry and messages found below to anyone. If only there were more men with passion like his!

David H J Gay Ministry

 

[sawdust]

no, you did not state that. I should have clarified that Post 6802 was my reply to studier.

Apologies for any confusion due to my inadvertence ...





in agreement.





right ... it is an interesting point to ponder ... (to me at least )
.

No problem, stuff happens.

Agreed, meditating on the word always finds interesting things cropping up.

 

[studier]

I would agree with most things he says and highly recommend his ministry and messages found below to anyone. If only there were more men with passion like his!

David H J Gay Ministry

Absolutely agree!

Thanks @Rufus for connecting the 3 of us in this.

BTW, @maxamir, @Rufus was the one I mentioned that pointed me to NCT after I'd been on an island in my own studies for 16 years working out of what I'd been trained in.

 

[studier]

So, apparently, you have an understanding concerning the reasoning of what Jesus said, but you're not willing to share in order to help others come to a more accurate understanding of the record ... shrug ... we need more Aquilas and Priscillas in our day and time ...

It's not an unwillingness to share. These forums are filled with a lot of antagonism. It's an unwillingness to do a lot of work until if and when I think someone is willing to truly join in and collaborate and have a serious discussion. Typically I find a lack of desire or ability to even get into Scripture in depth in context.

I have taken the initiative, explained my understanding of the record, and I am asking you for your understanding of the record.

Thus far, I have no idea what your understanding of the record is because you simply will not state what you believe

OK, then I'll take it as initiative. I think I have pointed you to a few things to consider. Again, I can lay out everything I see but when I see what looks to be a certain level of disagreement or unwillingness to consider other views, then what's the point of doing more work?

I'll leave all of this type of discussion here for now. I'll begin to lay out what I see in Luke in another post.

 

[studier]

Based on your post you linked to, it appears people think the "your sons" are Jesus' disciples because of the judgment that follows but I always saw that passage as it was the demons who would judge the false teachers (the ones accusing Jesus of doing the devils work).

I posted the reference because I found the theory interesting. I did not think this before but now am considering it as I look at the passages again. I haven't looked at them in any depth for ages. I never thought and do not think demons judging is correct. I'll explain why when I begin to post with @reneweddaybyday. Please join in.

 

[notmyown]

Absolutely agree!

Thanks @Rufus for connecting the 3 of us in this.

BTW, @maxamir, @Rufus was the one I mentioned that pointed me to NCT after I'd been on an island in my own studies for 16 years working out of what I'd been trained in.

you've heard of the website cross to crown dot org? lots of NCT material there, i believe.

 

[studier]

If you want to concentrate solely on your area of interest? Start a new thread.

Sure, as if you and many others haven't gone off-topic. Do some homework and look back to see I joined a topic of discussion and did not start it. If you're going to be policing, consider doing so justly across the spectrum.

I've found the Ignore function works well if you'd prefer.

 

[studier]

you've heard of the website cross to crown dot org? lots of NCT material there, i believe.

Thanks! I was wondering what orientation @maxamir had. I've reviewed some of the NCT info., found a fair amount I agree with, found the Law of Christ graphic well done to the degree I reviewed it, have had some email discussions with a few who teach it and agree with it to whatever degree, and will see where my thinking goes from there. Some of its thinking re: Law has especially been interesting.

Do you agree with NCT?

 

[notmyown]

Thanks! I was wondering what orientation @maxamir had. I've reviewed some of the NCT info., found a fair amount I agree with, found the Law of Christ graphic well done to the degree I reviewed it, have had some email discussions with a few who teach it and agree with it to whatever degree, and will see where my thinking goes from there. Some of its thinking re: Law has especially been interesting.

Do you agree with NCT?

it all has to do with the amount of continuity/discontinuity between the Old Testament and the New, if i recall.

i'm not dispensational by any means. i listened to John Reisinger years back, but i haven't thought about it in quite a while. i'll have to peer into it again before i can answer your question. maybe the website i referenced can help us both.

 

[studier]

A couple things to get out of the way first:

Who are the "their" to whom Jesus refers?

Luke 11:

As I understand you, your question above concerns "their" in Luke 11:17. I'm going to put some notes in parenthesis. If I add a word, I'll italicize and underline it. If I disagree with the way a word is translated and think it meaningful to whatever degree, I'll strike it. If I bracket some words, it's because they are added by the translator. I typically use the NKJ because I'm used to it. I'll get into the Greek if I think it's necessary. If you want something better defined, let me know.

NKJ Luke 11:14-17 And He (Jesus) was casting out a demon, and it was mute. So it was, when the demon had gone out, that the mute spoke; and the multitudes (crowds) marveled. 15 But some of them (some from the crowds) said, "He (Jesus) casts out demons by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons." 16 and others (from the crowds), testing Him (Jesus), sought they (others from the crowds) were seeking from Him a sign from heaven. 17 But He (Jesus), knowing their (could be the others from the crowd who were testing Jesus - could also include those from the crowds alleging Jesus was casting out demons by Beelzebub) thoughts, said to them (from the crowd): "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and a house [divided against] a house falls (literally "a house upon a house falls" - a house falls upon a house - kind of like a house of cards).

"Their" is those from the crowd. Since it says Jesus "knowing their thoughts" I might go with "their" being the ones who were testing Him. IOW, Jesus knew what they were doing in testing Him by seeking a sign from Him. "Their" could also be referring all of them, His accusers, and the ones seeking the sign, and even most to all of the crowds. Jesus is speaking among a crowd of people and in effect, He's speaking to all of them, and the issue was, who is Jesus?

The reason I struck "sought" and changed it to "they were seeking" is because the original wording is painting a picture that this is a very active situation and they were continually seeking this from Jesus. It's not a picture of a few who sought, but more of a dynamic crowd situation with some chaos typical in crowds. The dynamic is some wondering if He is Messiah (seeking a sign) and some accusing Him of being demonic, a false Messiah, a false prophet, etc...

If you search through the chapters leading up to this, you'll see that up through Luke 9:20 Jesus is not letting people spread that He is Messiah/Christ. All this chaos in part is because His notoriety had been spreading (Luke 9:11) and people were wondering and likely and lively debating who He was.