Predestination is misunderstood...

[FollowerofShiloh]

They needed to find a way to explain what was not explained directly in Scripture...
So.... They provided their own answers to help keep the peasants stabilized.

Just like the RCC did with their concocted explanation as to how Jesus was born without sin.
They made it up, too.

Lets just say... "It was an accepted trend with the religious community at their time in history. '

Thanks for that info!

grace and peace .............

You're Welcome, Brother!

 

[Genez]

Hi pot.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Where I come from.... Its called, 'making someone angry and reactionary."

Why do it then

 

[Cameron143]

Nice

 

[Genez]

Why do it then

What do you tell them?

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

What do you tell them?

well I know what I would tell them, but im asking you why you run with big gob provoking people

 

[Charlie_2024]

There was no "joint effort" in my proposed alternative, since faith is not a work, unless you reject the Bible and consider faith a work.

Do you consider what I posted to be Arminianism. It does not fit the definition you gave of Arminianism. And it does not fit Calvinism.

PaulThomson said:
What do you call the view where faith is not a work/ergon/effort and God offers salvation on the condition of faith, and man is capable of turning from distrust in God to trust in God, and man must be trusting God to be being saved from sin's power and consequences at any particular point in time?

To this you replied


So, according to you, it is a false view that is neither Calvinism nor Arminianism, Do you see now that there are other options? Is it possible for your understanding to grow?

I love being corrected but you have just proven that you believe the Arminian works based gospel. Where you and God work together to achieve salvation for you.

Your argument, contradicts what you claim, you claim that God offers you salvation and you can reject it or use your faith as a work and accept it. That means God meets you half way and you have to make the leap of faith and jump into the sea of Gallie and Jesus will catch you. So it's a joint effort salvation which relies on your faith and obedience.

So you can't say, you don't follow Arminius as that's exactly what he taught.

The biblical gospel says, "you can do nothing without me", but along comes Paul Thomson and says. Nah I don't believe you Jesus, watch me force you to save me by my faith and my obedience, so that's a purely works based salvation which makes the Lord a liar.

 

[Charlie_2024]

Yes... There will be believers who are going to face terrible destruction.


1 Corinthians 3:11-15


For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.
If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be
revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has
been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will
suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.


There is also a sin onto death that stubborn, self righteous believers go through when their time comes. 1 John 5:16-18

Again, you have misapplied 1 Cor, 3:11-15 all believers are saved. It's ludicrous to suggest that believers will suffer "terrible destruction". That's not biblically correct and again it is only your personal view.

What those verses are saying is, the obvious truth that all believers hold on to sinful earthly things. Most of us have placed some trust in our works, riches, charity, talents and gifts to make us more acceptable to God.

While all of those things are good, they don't add anything to the finished work of Christ on the cross, so God will burn them all up and that will reveal which of the works were done in obedience and which were done out of selfish desire.

Those verses gain support the Calvinist view and expose thew Arminian view, because they show that we can add nothing to the finished work of the Lord to earn salvation.

 

[Charlie_2024]

Organs of the body were used by the ancients to describe various emotions and feelings....

Here you go.... Run with this one.

Song of Solomon 5:4

My beloved put in his hand by the hole of the door,
and my bowels were moved for him."​

Explain that....



Your commentaries are not helping you....

your drawing a very long bow here, that verse is unrelated so it can't be applied to support your argument. There are many different contexts in which body parts are used. So you can't appeal to unrelated verses, unless you explain how it relates to our verse.

Solomon used a lot of colorful language, so you need to consider all the surrounding text to make sure it is relevant

 

[Genez]

Again, you have misapplied 1 Cor, 3:11-15 all believers are saved. It's ludicrous to suggest that believers will suffer "terrible destruction". That's not biblically correct and again it is only your personal view.

When you are there in your resurrection body standing before the Lord
And you get to see and realize all what He desired for you to have?
And, to see all one's works burned up ...
Works that displeased Him.... The one whom you will have a love for beyond your present capacity to understand?

Fire destroying all that you took pride in and were sure it would please Him....

It will be terrible destruction.
You will be saved like a man running from his burning house, losing everything he valued.

And, worse of all yet.
You will not hear the words... "Well done my good and faithful servant."

Yes.... It will be a terrible destruction.

Then He will wipe away every tear.. No more sorrow.

 

[Genez]

your drawing a very long bow here, that verse is unrelated so it can't be applied to support your argument. There are many different contexts in which body parts are used. So you can't appeal to unrelated verses, unless you explain how it relates to our verse.

Solomon used a lot of colorful language, so you need to consider all the surrounding text to make sure it is relevant

I am not going to argue with you.... Its a fact.

The ancients used body parts back then for describing various emotions.

Look up what "my reins" (kidneys) meant as found in the KJV...

What does the King James Bible mean—“reins?”

If you are ever going to be good and pleasing to the Lord you will need to accept corrections when they come.


Naves Topical Index
Belly
Used figuratively for the seat of the affections.
Job 15:2; Job 15:35; Job 20:20; Psalms 44:25; Proverbs 18:20; Proverbs 20:27; Proverbs 20:30; Habakkuk 3:16; John 7:38; Titus 1:12


Easton's Bible Dictionary
Belly
The seat of the carnal affections (Titus 1:12; Philippians 3:19; Romans 16:18). The word is used symbolically for the heart (Proverbs 18:8; 20:27; 22:18, marg.). The "belly of hell" signifies the grave or underworld (Jonah 2:2).
.......

 

[Charlie_2024]

Scripture says "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved". Belief precedes salvation so no, one must believe to be saved as God has determined to save believers only.



God did not choose us to believe. That is your error. Nowhere in scripture will you find He chose us to believe. He chose us to be adopted, He chose us to be like His Son but He did not choose who would and wouldn't believe.

Well that's your personal take but my bible tells me the opposite, so with all due respect I must reject your view as being false and stick to what God said. Thank you.

Let's see how you twist these verses to support your Arminian doctrine. The verse clearly say Gods elect were chosen before the foundation of the world and you must accept that fact or deny Gods Word. There's no wiggle room here.

Ephesians 1:4-6

just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

 

[Charlie_2024]

ROFL

How can it be when it all depends on God's choice according to the Calvinist.

Your choice is to either believe what God said about Himself or deny it, the choice is yours. But you don't get to chose who God saves, that's His private business and nobody has any right to meddle in it.

 

[maxamir]

You need to work out YOUR OWN salvation with fear and trembling.
Not mine! Your own!

​

Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in ​

my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work ​

out your salvation with fear and trembling." Philippians 2:12​

​

Sounds to me that you don't really know if you are saved.

If you did? You would not be asking such a question.

​

​

For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. ​

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, ​

but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son ​

and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.” John 6:38-40​

Jesus was saying that once you are saved.... even if you doubt your salvation?
He will lose none of all the Father gives to Him. None....

The Father is not going to give His beloved Son a believer whom later will be taken away from Him.


In Christ....

I thoroughly agree, that once saved, always saved but how does a person actually know they are saved. A simple question which I am surprised that you so far are unable to answer.

Remember the warnings of Christ, that many will claim to know Him but He didn't know them and study the meaning of the parable of the sower.

 

[maxamir]

Not "free" will. We are not born with free will.
But, we are given by grace a "freed" will! (freed by God's power of grace)!

When God wants to in drawing us, the power of God grace suppresses our flesh's dominance over our soul.

While that grace is being applied in that manner?
That person's soul is being freed up to think outside of the tyranny of the fallen nature's depravity.

Keep in mind.
God saved your soul.
Not your body.

I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; ​

and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved ​

me and gave Himself for me. " Galatians 2:20​

​

Your body has been crucified with Christ.
Your soul must live for God by faith!

God sees your depraved flesh as being crucified and destined for a garbage dump.
Your soul now is free to think with truth as long as you keep being filled with the Spirit.

grace and peace ............

Amen, that is called being born again.

I disagree with the garbage dump. At His return our physical bodies shall be changed to be like His.

1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

 

[maxamir]

Your claims are both logically unsound and logically invalid.

You are straw-manning the free will position, and arguing against a position free willers do not hold..
Will is the same thing as desire.
Who is claiming that God cannot interfere with man's will. Human's influence other humans' desires all the time. Advertising relies on that skill.
We do not have to be omniscient or omnipotent to influence someone's will.
Nor do we have to be influencing someone's will continuously, in order to be able to influence their will at opportune times to persuade them towards doing what accomplishes our will, or even occasionally coercing them into doing our will against their will.
Nor do I have to have complete control of someone's will in order to influence their will.
Nor, to have free will, does someone have to be immune to influence from another.

Since your argument relies on numerous premises that contradict these truth, your argument is specious.
If God's will includes His desire that people freely choose to desire to serve Him for them to be part of His family and to gain immortality, then He is doing according to His will by leaving wills free, and Dan 4:35 is true and accords with free will, if one defines free will biblically: as the freedom to decide for oneself what one wants and what one does not want.

you must be a farmer with all the strawman accusations you keep making.

Scripture declares that man's will from birth is enslaved to sin and therefore man will only desire anything according to his corrupted nature and it is up to God to make His people willing in the day of His power (Psalm 110:3). No straw there, only biblical truth.

 

[maxamir]

You completely ignored and ran from responding to most of my post. I wrote -


Actually, the Jews blocked their own ears and closed their own eyes in response to what God said to them via Isaiah. So God increased their self-imposed blindness by continuing to point out what they were already refusing to see. And God deepened their self-imposed deafness by continuing to tell them what they were already refusing to heed.

When I give someone hope, do I irresistibly grace them with hope? When I make someone angry, do I irresistibly impose anger on them. When I steel someone's resolve, do I force them to be resolute? Try thinking for yourself on this one and give me reasonable answers."

I guess I blinded and deafened you by asking those questions, causing you to shut more tightly your eyes and stick your fingers deeped into your ears.

God decreed their stumbling as well as their blindness because He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens (Rom 9:18). It would be best to consider your clayness before answering.

 

[maxamir]

No idea what alleged logic you are using there.

why do you deserve to go to Heaven?

If you can't be bothered giving a simple direct answer, then please do not waste my time with your silliness.

 

[Charlie_2024]

When you are there in your resurrection body standing before the Lord
And you get to see and realize all what He desired for you to have?
And, to see all one's works burned up ...
Works that displeased Him.... The one whom you will have a love for beyond your present capacity to understand?

Fire destroying all that you took pride in and were sure it would please Him....

It will be terrible destruction.
You will be saved like a man running from his burning house, losing everything he valued.

And, worse of all yet.
You will not hear the words... "Well done my good and faithful servant."

Yes.... It will be a terrible destruction.

Then He will wipe away every tear.. No more sorrow.

Again, I'm of the opposite view. My understanding of these verses is, that believers will be glad to see the dross being burned away to reveal vessels of pure refined gold. All of the carnal earthly things which had a hold on us will be burned up and we will become sinless, immortal and incorruptible.

I don't see anything bad in any of this, perhaps our carnal nature will cry while it's being burned up, but it will be gone forever and no longer a part of who we are.
We would only grieve if it was the other way around and we got what the reprobate get. And that's the opposite, God removes His mercy and grace from them and leaves them in a state of total depravity and under His wrath, punishment and condemnation for all eternity.

 

[maxamir]

Please tell me the post number wherein it is stated that we are saved because of our choice.

I have not seen anyone make that statement. That is why I told you that you were engaging in strawman fallacy.





You are the only one who is saying that. We all agree that salvation is wholly of/by/from God.

So unless you can point out the post submitted in this thread wherein it is stated what you claim is stated, quit insisting that someone is saying what they are not saying and quit ignoring the fact that you are the only one saying what you claim is said by others.


Romans 1:16-17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it [the gospel of Christ] is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein [in the gospel of Christ] is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
.

anyone who says that they contributed to their salvation by cooperating with God and says they have assurance by anything they have done does not yet know grace.

You would do well to study soteriology and the major differences between below of a man-centred gospel which prevails everywhere today and a God-centred Gospel which gives Him all the glory of salvation.