Predestination is misunderstood...

[PaulThomson]

I think we could also ask is this eternal life salvation? There is a range of meanings in scripture for saved and context helps determine it.

Like in Matthew where it states those who endure to the end shall be saved, this is physically saved.

I agree Sproul is conflating.

Yes. As I said, Abraham will not be fully saved until the resurrection. But in other contexts saved means other things: healed from a sickness (Luke 18:42. Delivered from a demon (Luke 1:71}. rescued from some danger (Jude 1:5). Given the Holy Spirit ("saved by His life" Rom. 5:9-10, Tit. 3:5, Eph. 2:5, 8)

I appreciate your encouragement, HeIsHere. Thanks.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

do you believe the father hands people over to son.

And does the father refer to the wicked people who turn from there ways.

The scriptures that I have just posted to you says God gave his Son those that he wanted him to save eternally. (John 6:37-39).

There are many more scriptures that refer to God giving people to his Son (Heb 2:13) (John 10:29) (John 17:9) John 17:11) (John 17:24)

 

[ForestGreenCook]

again you haven't acknowledged what was said and asked of you.

Sorry, ask again, and I will be happy to give you an answer.

 

[Genez]

David understood being made into the image and likeness of Christ as Per Rom 8:29

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Ps 17 15

As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness.

The word image in Rom 8:29 is the greek word eikōn :

an image, figure, likeness

Christ is the Image of God 2 Cor 4:4

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

So you are wrong !

Adam was also created in the likeness of God.
Was he the Bride of Christ?

Do you know what the term "Bride of Christ" means?

David in his resurrection will of course have the likeness of God.
But will he have the same glorious body as Christ has? No.
That body structure is reserved solely for the Bride of Christ!

This is not for a simple answer ....
It takes time and knowledge before it can be understood.

David, Moses, and even John the Baptist will not be the Bride of Christ in the resurrection.


John the Baptist even acknowledged that he will not be the Bride of Christ!

That was is the Friend of the Bridegroom, that he was not the Bride!

John revealed that he was predestined to be the Friend of the Groom!

​

There is a difference!

​

The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend who attends the bridegroom ​

waits and listens for him, and is full of joy when he hears the bridegroom’s voice. ​

That joy is mine, and it is now complete.​

​

​

The one who has the bride is the bridegroom. The friend of the bridegroom, who ​

stands and hears him, rejoices greatly at the bridegroom’s voice. Therefore this ​

joy of mine is now complete."​

​

John 3:29​

​

grace and peace!

 

[Jimbone]

what does this say

This says Adam and eve where both tempted together and Adam was there the whole time


Genesis 2
She also gave some to her husband, who was with her,

BEing made to stumble

the lord God turned to the serpent and said because you have done this

Very nice points. I never "saw" that before. I appreciate you pointing this out to me and I now have to go rethink things about this a bit more. Nice questions though, had me going to scripture and seeing things I never noticed before. Thanks again.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I think we could also ask is this eternal life salvation? There is a range of meanings in scripture for saved and context helps determine it.

Like in Matthew where it states those who endure to the end shall be saved, this is physically saved.

I agree Sproul is conflating.

if you do not have eternal life. are you really saved?

also interesting that in the greek. the word translated "saved" in english literally means to be rescued, to be delivered, to make safe.

 

[PaulThomson]

Your in error

We are justified BECAUSE we are redeemed, And we are saved BECAUSE we are justified.

Why do you think you can save yourself? Why do you reject the cross?

I don't reject the cross. I don't think I can save myself from anything without God's grace and power. You are not justified by being redeemed.
You were redeemed along with every other soul that ever lived by the atonement offered by Jesus at Calvary for the sins of the world, when Jesus ransomed you and bought you with His blood. This was before you believed in Him.
You are justified by putting faith in Jesus. when you believe in His resurrection from the dead and profess Him Lord.
You are being saved by the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit our Lord gives to those who put their trust in Him.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

do you believe the father hands people over to son.

And does the father refer to the wicked people who turn from there ways.

God's born again children (you and I) will, sometimes, be wicked and turn away from God and lust after the things of the world. When we do that, we temporary lose our fellowship with God, until we repent.

James 1:14-15, But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin, and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death=separation from God's fellowship, until they repent.

 

[PaulThomson]

My friend, your the one that says God saves a person KNOWING that person will fall away back to unbelief not me

I have not said, "God saves a person KNOWING that person will fall away back to unbelief."

The person on stony soil was never saved.. They never had true saving faith, hence why they never produced fruit.

I have said that Abraham will not be fully saved until the resurrection. And the same applies to all. Since Jesus said the stony soil was a heart that receives the word with joy but falls away under persecution, it is possible that receiving does not men believing. So, I'll conceed that text does not prove my point. But others do. Heb. 10:26-31, and Rom. 11:17-22.

They still do nt support you

Anyone reading that passage who is believing has been saved

It says they HAVE eternal life. If they can die for ANY reason, they do not HAVE eternal life.

You can;t have it both ways my friend.

You are defining eternal (aeonous) life as endless. Jesus defines it as knowing Jesus Christ and the Father in John 17:3. If we focus on achieving Jesus definition, we won't have to worry about keeping or losing that relationship. If we focus on assuring ourselves from scripture that we cannot lose aeonous life, we are being distracted away from the Life-Giver, who should be the object of our attention, and from what is actually aeonous life..

 

[PaulThomson]

lol. If anyone here is sloppy it is you

believing (present tense) has (present tense) eternal life

How can I have eternal life if I can still die? I can't

so you own argument defeats itself

Because eternal (aeonous) life is a quality of relationship with the Father and Jesus Christ. So, if you lose that quality of relationship, you have lost what Jesus calls aeonous life in John 17:3.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

if you do not have eternal life. are you really saved?

I have said that Abraham will not be fully saved until the resurrection. And the same applies to all.

Let's talk about other OT servants. Is Moses saved? Elijah? If not, they had absolutely no right to show up and talk to Jesus at His transfiguration. The NERVE of them!

I think God's opinion is the only one that matters. If HE thinks they're saved, then the ARE saved.


🥞

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

God's born again children (you and I) will, sometimes, be wicked and turn away from God and lust after the things of the world. When we do that, we temporary lose our fellowship with God, until we repent.

James 1:14-15, But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin, and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death=separation from God's fellowship, until they repent.

The passage

Ezekiel 18:27 King James Version (KJV)Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

So where is Jesus in the above text


well its when the father hands them to the son

secondly it's when Jesus forgives the chosen

thirdly the wicked refers to every lost soul.

do you believe this.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Sorry, ask again, and I will be happy to give you an answer.

I asked you to acknowledge what i wrote about Jesus.

In the post where you said I hadn't provided any scripture

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Very nice points. I never "saw" that before. I appreciate you pointing this out to me and I now have to go rethink things about this a bit more. Nice questions though, had me going to scripture and seeing things I never noticed before. Thanks again.

yes it's the reason why every lost soul is worthy of saving 😊

 

[PaulThomson]

Let's talk about other OT servants. Is Moses saved? Elijah? If not, they had absolutely no right to show up and talk to Jesus at His transfiguration. The NERVE of them!

I think God's opinion is the only one that matters. If HE thinks they're saved, then the ARE saved.


🥞

How do you define "saved" in this context? and which scriptures are you using to get this definition? And are Moses and Elijah fully saved, or are they still awaiting some more saving work by our Lord?

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Adam and eve was someone you loved 😊

 

[Magenta]

Because eternal (aeonous) life is a quality of relationship with the Father and Jesus Christ. So, if you lose that quality of relationship, you have lost what Jesus calls aeonous life in John 17:3.

Scripture does not say that.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I don't reject the cross. I don't think I can save myself from anything without God's grace and power.

You could have fooled me, All you talk about is the possibility of losing salvation.

You are not justified by being redeemed.

Actually yes you are. Your redeemed from the penalty of sin, hence you are declared righteous (justified)

You were redeemed along with every other soul that ever lived by the atonement offered by Jesus at Calvary for the sins of the world, when Jesus ransomed you and bought you with His blood. This was before you believed in Him.
You are justified by putting faith in Jesus. when you believe in His resurrection from the dead and profess Him Lord.
You are being saved by the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit our Lord gives to those who put their trust in Him.

Um, Not every sin was redeemed my friend.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

How do you define "saved" in this context? and which scriptures are you using to get this definition? And are Moses and Elijah fully saved, or are they still awaiting some more saving work by our Lord?

My definition is not important. Neither is yours. How does God define it? That's all that matters.

From Matthew 17:2-3, Mark 9:3-4, Luke 9:29-30, you can observe how Jesus treats them at the transfiguration. They're not strangers to each other and they're very comfortable in each other's presence. This is before Jesus died on the cross for all of us. Why would God be so close to them at that point? Even if we don't understand, the big take away from this, is that God already treated the OT believers as His own having believed Him while they were alive in His promise to save them.


🥞

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I have not said, "God saves a person KNOWING that person will fall away back to unbelief."

When you claim they CAN fall away if they stop believing, that exactly what your saying./

I have said that Abraham will not be fully saved until the resurrection.

He was just as saved the moment God declare him righteous as he will the day he is ressurected.

And the same applies to all. Since Jesus said the stony soil was a heart that receives the word with joy but falls away under persecution, it is possible that receiving does not men believing. So, I'll conceed that text does not prove my point. But others do. Heb. 10:26-31, and Rom. 11:17-22.

Actually they do not support you either.

Heb 10 is about people who have not yet come to saving faith. Who willfully sin because they have not come to Christ and taken the next step.

Vs 39 also shows the author is not talking to true believers

39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.

You are defining eternal (aeonous) life as endless. Jesus defines it as knowing Jesus Christ and the Father in John 17:3. If we focus on achieving Jesus definition, we won't have to worry about keeping or losing that relationship. If we focus on assuring ourselves from scripture that we cannot lose aeonous life, we are being distracted away from the Life-Giver, who should be the object of our attention, and from what is actually aeonous life..

Jesus said we will NEVER die in John 6.

He said in John 3 we will never die 9perish) but we have eternal life (literally will live forever)

so again, Your attempt to use languages to support your view is flawed

i would try not to be to much of a scholar.. its hurting your case