Predestination is misunderstood...

[Chaps]

From that perspective, there is no need for God in salvation. A person can simply read the Bible and believe and they are saved.

Except, that's not how scripture deals with salvation. Men in their natural estate never seek after God. It is always God who initiates with man.

A couple of thoughts I’d like to share:

I think this is a drastic overstatement/reaction to my comment. The very fact that I am referencing the importance of accepting the Gospel shows that God is the author of our salvation. I don’t think its necessary to say that God had to send his Son to die for us in our lost state, AND also has to make us believe in order for God to be needed in Salvation. In fact, ”faith” is contrasted from ”works” in scripture. So to argue that the ability to believe is essentially man earning/working out his salvation is directly contrary to how Scripture distinguishes work from grace/faith.

Also, there are plenty of Christians who do not hold to this type of predestination view on God’s sovereignty who still believe that God is both active in saving men through the cross and also helping them to accept the message. The concept of “prevenient grace” taught by Augustine and others (which essentially means “grace that precedes”) was also embraced by non-Calvinist’s such as John Wesley. His view was that the Holy Spirit prepares a persons heart to hear the Gospel so that they can understand it, but for Wesley, this drawing of the Spirit could be resisted.

Anyway, in sum, there are a lot of ways of viewing this without suggesting that one side does not accept salvation by grace as a work of God alone.

 

[Cameron143]

You need to read beyond "men love darkness". Not everyone does because it goes on to say there are those who come to the light. People are not created evil. They will learn to love the light or they will learn to hate it because the light is shining in the world. We have never been left to ourselves. That's the whole point. If we all naturally loved darkness we would all run from the light, but not all do and it is not because they are alive in Christ.

You can understand how the grace (power) of God can make a man alive but you refuse to see that same grace can free a man temporarily so he can answer to the truth of his own free will. It's like you're saying God can do the impossible but He can't do the near impossible.

That's my point: when God frees a person, they are free indeed. There is nothing temporary about it. It's total, and it's glorious.

 

[sawdust]

That's my point: when God frees a person, they are free indeed. There is nothing temporary about it. It's total, and it's glorious.

That's salvation. What I'm talking about is being made free to respond to God just as Adam was free to respond prior to the Fall.

 

[Cameron143]

A couple of thoughts I’d like to share:

I think this is a drastic overstatement/reaction to my comment. The very fact that I am referencing the importance of accepting the Gospel shows that God is the author of our salvation. I don’t think its necessary to say that God had to send his Son to die for us in our lost state, AND also has to make us believe in order for God to be needed in Salvation. In fact, ”faith” is contrasted from ”works” in scripture. So to argue that the ability to believe is essentially man earning/working out his salvation is directly contrary to how Scripture distinguishes work from grace/faith.

Also, there are plenty of Christians who do not hold to this type of predestination view on God’s sovereignty who still believe that God is both active in saving men through the cross and also helping them to accept the message. The concept of “prevenient grace” taught by Augustine and others (which essentially means “grace that precedes”) was also embraced by non-Calvinist’s such as John Wesley. His view was that the Holy Spirit prepares a persons heart to hear the Gospel so that they can understand it, but for Wesley, this drawing of the Spirit could be resisted.

Anyway, in sum, there are a lot of ways of viewing this without suggesting that one side does not accept salvation by grace as a work of God alone.

You are guilty of the very thing you accuse me of. I never raised the issue that one side does not accept salvation by grace alone. You had to read that into my remarks.

One of the problems that invariably arises when the subject of salvation comes up is that people assume things of others. Another problem is found in the use of language. Often when a phrase or term is employed, it holds one understanding with one, and means something different to another. A third is that the subject of salvation is one that many become very emotional about and there are verses that seem to say opposing things on the subject.

But thanks for the discussion. Grace and peace.

 

[Cameron143]

That's salvation. What I'm talking about is being made free to respond to God just as Adam was free to respond prior to the Fall.

I understood your point. It's not that I don't believe your scenario is possible for God. I believe when God sets a person free, He sets them completely free.

 

[sawdust]

I understood your point. It's not that I don't believe your scenario is possible for God. I believe when God sets a person free, He sets them completely free.

I never said you didn't understand my point. The difference between us is you think God must save a person before they can desire the light. I say they only need to have the sin nature muzzled so they can chose of their own free will whether they desire light or not. Their choice reveals whether they are a believer or an unbeliever. God promised to save believers.

Everyone sees the light, if it were not so, the world would not hate Christ, they would be oblivious to Him.

 

[Genez]

I agree there is light. But the natural man remains in darkness because that is his desire. That's what his darkened heart finds delight in. So he will continue to seek it out until something happens to alter that desire. Left to himself, he will not seek God(light). He will continue to make himself meet for destruction.

Man when left to his own strength will have his flesh continuing to dominate over his soul. The flesh unrestrained is the soul's slave master. In the natural state of the flesh having inborn control over a soul, it will leave a man having no power to choose to believe in Jesus.

God 's supernatural power. Power that we call 'grace. In effect - ties up and gags the sin nature for as long God desires to disable it.
The flesh being tied up and gagged by grace will then allow for a person's soul to freely choose what it really wants to believe.

Believe, or to reject while being free of the dominance of his flesh.... In effect.. God's grace makes a person freed from the depravity of his flesh for as long as God administers his grace power for His intended purpose when drawing someone unto salvation.

While God's grace is being "benevolently imposed" upon a person's flesh? A person's soul is released from the tyranny of his sin nature. That same sin nature, when allowed to be free, would make his soul unable stop conforming to the sin nature's depravity.

Now when one's soul by grace has been made free from the depravity of the flesh? If that soul that is being given grace, then freely chooses to reject? In that state of freedom he will be held fully accountable for his choice. The depravity of that man's flesh can not be used for his excuse when condemned. Yes... unbelievers have memorized Calvinistic thinking.

The administering of the power of His grace is why God will be free to condemn all who refuse to believe. No excuse will be accepted.
God's grace given to those who rejected salvation removes any possibility for a motion of an appeal.


In Christ ...............

 

[Genez]

That's my point: when God frees a person, they are free indeed. There is nothing temporary about it. It's total, and it's glorious.

Being made free from the Lake of Fire takes place once and for all, once they believe....

But,, unless a believer continues to grow in grace and knowledge?
Though saved? They might still act like an unbeliever who lays claim to believing in Christ.

 

[cv5]

I appreciate that. I believe the Bible teaches that men are in darkness. People jumped on the verses in Corinthians, but no one dealt with the verses in Colossians.

Rev 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Isa 55:1
Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

 

[cv5]

I understood your point. And the problem has nothing to do with the word itself. The fault lies in fallen man. So no decoding is necessary. Enlightenment is what is necessary. Imagine being in a completely dark room with an open book before you. You can't read the book. If a light is turned on, anyone can read the book. But men love darkness and not the light.

Here is the crux of the problem....
God has ordained that men MAKE A CHOICE. Of their own free will.
BTW.....most will choose "the lie", the man of sin at the time of the end of the age.

Pro 8:36
But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

Mat 6:24
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

 

[Cameron143]

Here is the crux of the problem....
God has ordained that men MAKE A CHOICE. Of their own free will.
BTW.....most will choose "the lie", the man of sin at the time of the end of the age.

Pro 8:36
But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

Mat 6:24
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

I don't disagree that God calls men to respond. We simply disagree on why people choose as they do, which means we disagree on the estate of unredeemed man.

 

[cv5]

I don't disagree that God calls men to respond. We simply disagree on why people choose as they do, which means we disagree on the estate of unredeemed man.

Yes we do.

So tell me: was Abel more responsive to Gods calling than Cain? And if so, why?
Did Cain make a choice of his own free will? How about Korah?

 

[maxamir]

that's because you have to believe be saved and be baptised.

Ain't no holy spirit going to baptise a demon,

Honestly your intelligence astounds
you.

all your focused on is the devil

it is only those who still serve the devil that have been handed over to believe his lie that faith is the cause of salvation and not grace.

 

[maxamir]

the devil is a liar,.focus on God, and the idea God is father

 

[Cameron143]

Yes we do.

So tell me: was Abel more responsive to Gods calling than Cain? And if so, why?
Did Cain make a choice of his own free will? How about Korah?

I don't look at it in terms of more responsive or less. They responded differently. They Bible at this point doesn't explain why. If we extrapolate to the NT, you already have my answer.

 

[maxamir]

The Father chooses those whom he tests with drawing all men....

Those who do not resist God drawing them He then chooses to give to the Son.

Stephen said some men are always resisting the Holy Spirit!

“You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised.
You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit! Acts 7:51

Yes!

The drawing of God can be resisted!


There it is! Acts 7:51.


In Christ...

those who of their father the devil will always resist the Holy Spirit.


Rom 3:10 As it is written: "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NO, NOT ONE;
Rom 3:11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS; THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS AFTER GOD.
Rom 3:12 THEY HAVE ALL TURNED ASIDE; THEY HAVE TOGETHER BECOME UNPROFITABLE; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, NO, NOT ONE."
Rom 3:13 "THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN TOMB; WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY HAVE PRACTICED DECEIT"; "THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS";
Rom 3:14 "WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS."
Rom 3:15 "THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD;
Rom 3:16 DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR WAYS;
Rom 3:17 AND THE WAY OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN."
Rom 3:18 "THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES."

 

[maxamir]

Yes! Proves it does not take being regenerated first before becoming born again....

you just foolishly implied that the demons can be born again without realising it.

 

[maxamir]

It's funny seeing the Reformed use AW Pink as a poster board for their doctrine when we have written and audio of him basically destroying the Gospel of Grace with his...

message.

Are you saying Christ was wrong for stating this twice below?

Luk 13:3 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.
Luk 13:4 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem?
Luk 13:5 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish."

 

[maxamir]

Reprobates end up becoming a reprobate as the result of God having initiated His drawing to them.
God does not in turn then try to save the reprobate...
For their state of reprobation was punishment from God for their rejecting His drawing them.

Here is one example of what I speak of...

​

​

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the ​

godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth ​

by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain ​

to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the ​

creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power ​

and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood ​

from what has been made, so that they are without excuse.​

​

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God ​

nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and ​

their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to ​

be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the ​

immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human ​

being and birds and animals and reptiles.​

​

Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their ​

hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies ​

with one another. They exchanged the truth about God for ​

a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than ​

the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.​

​

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. ​

Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for ​

unnatural ones.​

​

​

Romans 1:18-25​

God indeed justly hands people over to the evil they love as a demonstration of His righteousness (Rom 3:5) but if you continue reading Romans you will eventually come to Chapter 9 which states that God loves His people not because of who they are or what they do but because of who He is.

Rom 9:11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),
Rom 9:12 it was said to her, "THE OLDER SHALL SERVE THE YOUNGER."
Rom 9:13 As it is written, "JACOB I HAVE LOVED, BUT ESAU I HAVE HATED."

Jude confirms that the reprobate were marked out for condemnation before they were born.

Jud 1:4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

and that the Lord made them to glorify His perfectly good, holy, righteous, just and eternal wrath.

Pro 16:4 The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

Rom 9:21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
Rom 9:22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

 

[maxamir]

@7thMoon