Predestination is misunderstood...

[Evmur]

You are misunderstanding.

God chose who would be saved during the Church age by PREDETERMINING when they would be born.
He was nor predetermining to make them saved. But, when in history they would be saved by their own choice.

For example. God did not choose for David and Moses to be born during the church age.
Just the same God knew they would believe.
God could have had chosen to have Moses be born to do Paul's job, and Paul born at a time to do Moses job back in Egypt.

Yourself? If God predetermined that you would be born during the Exodus? That would mean He chose you to be a Jew who would be resurrected for His Kingdom on the New Earth. You would not be the Bride of Christ with your home in Heaven.

Paul was telling the Church that God chose them specifically to be the Bride of Christ. Do you know what that means?

what you are describing is total predetermination .... which I believe in but you do not for you talk about human choice.

You still have the problem of those who are not saved. You say they made the wrog choice but that would accredit you with greater wisdom, a more noble spirit ...

 

[Evmur]

If true, then God puts evil in every little baby, which is the clavinist claim that God made all people to be evil - that's because the god of calvinism is evil because they actually follow the devil.

God's Word tells us ALL have sinned and fallen short of God's glory, so we all sinned after getting here and that is the sin we are being held accountable for, not Adam's sin as we did not inherit his sin since we all did out own sin.






Sin came UPON each person. It doesn't say we were all born with sin in us since God did not create babies to be sinners.






A faulty non-biblical answer from the false doctrines of calvinism which came from the devil.






God said it was His will that ALL men be saved and none should parish


Titus 2:11,12
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men unto me.

Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.







That's because you are in the calvinist dugout sitting on the bench drinking the calvinist kool-aid!

Wrang

by one man's sin are all accounted sinners, by one Man's righteousness are many made righteous.

Man is born in sin and shapen in iniquity. God has CONSIGNED all men under sin, that does not make God evil, He did so the bible says so that He might have mercy upon all.

 

[brightfame52]

If true, then God puts evil in every little baby, which is the clavinist claim that God made all people to be evil - that's because the god of calvinism is evil because they actually follow the devil.

God's Word tells us ALL have sinned and fallen short of God's glory, so we all sinned after getting here and that is the sin we are being held accountable for, not Adam's sin as we did not inherit his sin since we all did out own sin.






Sin came UPON each person. It doesn't say we were all born with sin in us since God did not create babies to be sinners.






A faulty non-biblical answer from the false doctrines of calvinism which came from the devil.






God said it was His will that ALL men be saved and none should parish


Titus 2:11,12
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men unto me.

Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.







That's because you are in the calvinist dugout sitting on the bench drinking the calvinist kool-aid!

Rom 5:15

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

 

[Stan_the_Man]

Wrang

by one man's sin are all accounted sinners, by one Man's righteousness are many made righteous.

Man is born in sin and shapen in iniquity. God has CONSIGNED all men under sin, that does not make God evil, He did so the bible says so that He might have mercy upon all.

If you knew your bible better you would know WHY your statement is false.
You are just re false reformed theology talking points

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Deuteronomy 24:16
Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin.

If original sin is true, then babies are born guilty of sin, totally depraved, destined for eternal punishment. All passages already studied disprove this. Now note specifically:

Psalm 106:37,38; Jeremiah 19:4,5 - In sacrificing babies to idols, people shed the blood of innocent people. But if the babies inherited Adam's sin, they would be guilty and worthy of death. [cf. Jer. 32:35]

Romans 7:9 - Paul (representative of people in general) was alive before sin came, but then he died. How, if people are totally depraved since birth? (cf. v11)

Hebrews 12:9; Zechariah 12:1; Ecclesiastes 12:7 - Our fleshly nature comes from our earthly fathers (like Adam). But God is the Father of our spirits. God gives the spirit and forms it within man.

Total depravity says man is "wholly defiled in ... soul and body." Does the sinless Father in heaven give us wholly defiled, totally depraved spirits? If the spirit comes from God, not from earthly parents, how can we inherit sin from our parents?

Matthew 19:14; 18:3 - The kingdom of God belongs to those who are converted and become like little children. But if little children are totally depraved, why should we become like them? Does conversion make us totally depraved?

Jesus prayed for children and blessed them (Mark 10:14-16), but He did not baptize them. They did not need baptism, because they were acceptable just as they were. But how could this be if they were born total depraved?

The Bible teaches that sinners must be baptized to be saved (Acts 2:38; 22:16; Mark 16:16; 1 Pet. 3:21; Rom. 3:6,4; Gal. 3:26,27). The consequence of original sin is that babies who die without baptism are all lost eternally. But the Bible teaches that babies are innocent and need no baptism. So original sin is not true.

 

[Stan_the_Man]

Rom 5:15

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

This does not prove babes are all born sinners

See scriptures posted above that prove this to be false doctrine.

 

[brightfame52]

This does not prove babes are all born sinners

See scriptures posted above that prove this to be false doctrine.

Rom 5:15

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

 

[brightfame52]

This does not prove babes are all born sinners

See scriptures posted above that prove this to be false doctrine.

Rom 5:15

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

 

[Stan_the_Man]

Rom 5:15

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

This does not prove babes are all born sinners

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Deuteronomy 24:16
Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin.

Unless some think parts of God's Word is not true???

 

[Stan_the_Man]

Rom 5:15

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

This does not prove babes are all born sinners

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Deuteronomy 24:16
Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin.

Unless some think parts of God's Word is not true???

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

I dont know what you talking about. All this is coming out of left field

I'm ok in my field. I have peace.

I'm not in disagreement With his word.

Your mixing total depravity with grace. A deadly cocktail, that nobody can accept.

Which is hard for me to accept, but never the less I have become tolerant of it.

The only place total depravity from God being shown is to evil and satan, why because the truth is not in evil or satan.

However God chose to save us,.which is more than an indication we where worth saving, because of a very few good reasons, ive already mentioned, but more. We still must have something in us worth saving.

But your combining total depravity with Grace.

Which is like saying children are born evil.

There not, there born in a fallen state. That need a saviour.

God doesn't save evil or satan because that is what is totally depraved.

Your saying God saves evil with grace.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

You will be held accountable for what is scriptural, regardless if you call them man made

And you will be held accountable for the numerous times you took scripture and changed the true meaning to fit your doctrine.

 

[Evmur]

If you knew your bible better you would know WHY your statement is false.
You are just re false reformed theology talking points

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Deuteronomy 24:16
Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin.

If original sin is true, then babies are born guilty of sin, totally depraved, destined for eternal punishment. All passages already studied disprove this. Now note specifically:

Psalm 106:37,38; Jeremiah 19:4,5 - In sacrificing babies to idols, people shed the blood of innocent people. But if the babies inherited Adam's sin, they would be guilty and worthy of death. [cf. Jer. 32:35]

Romans 7:9 - Paul (representative of people in general) was alive before sin came, but then he died. How, if people are totally depraved since birth? (cf. v11)

Hebrews 12:9; Zechariah 12:1; Ecclesiastes 12:7 - Our fleshly nature comes from our earthly fathers (like Adam). But God is the Father of our spirits. God gives the spirit and forms it within man.

Total depravity says man is "wholly defiled in ... soul and body." Does the sinless Father in heaven give us wholly defiled, totally depraved spirits? If the spirit comes from God, not from earthly parents, how can we inherit sin from our parents?

Matthew 19:14; 18:3 - The kingdom of God belongs to those who are converted and become like little children. But if little children are totally depraved, why should we become like them? Does conversion make us totally depraved?

Jesus prayed for children and blessed them (Mark 10:14-16), but He did not baptize them. They did not need baptism, because they were acceptable just as they were. But how could this be if they were born total depraved?

The Bible teaches that sinners must be baptized to be saved (Acts 2:38; 22:16; Mark 16:16; 1 Pet. 3:21; Rom. 3:6,4; Gal. 3:26,27). The consequence of original sin is that babies who die without baptism are all lost eternally. But the Bible teaches that babies are innocent and need no baptism. So original sin is not true.

Total depravity is a misnomer.

I don't believe man is totally depraved, he is totally unable to save himself or to attain to salvation, that's another matter.

The bible says one man sinned so all men became sinners. If David was born in sin and shapen in iniquity so were you.

Why do you think Christ had to be born of a virgin?

Although all babies are born in sin sin is not counted against children.

 

[Evmur]

If you knew your bible better you would know WHY your statement is false.
You are just re false reformed theology talking points

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Deuteronomy 24:16
Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin.

If original sin is true, then babies are born guilty of sin, totally depraved, destined for eternal punishment. All passages already studied disprove this. Now note specifically:

Psalm 106:37,38; Jeremiah 19:4,5 - In sacrificing babies to idols, people shed the blood of innocent people. But if the babies inherited Adam's sin, they would be guilty and worthy of death. [cf. Jer. 32:35]

Romans 7:9 - Paul (representative of people in general) was alive before sin came, but then he died. How, if people are totally depraved since birth? (cf. v11)

Hebrews 12:9; Zechariah 12:1; Ecclesiastes 12:7 - Our fleshly nature comes from our earthly fathers (like Adam). But God is the Father of our spirits. God gives the spirit and forms it within man.

Total depravity says man is "wholly defiled in ... soul and body." Does the sinless Father in heaven give us wholly defiled, totally depraved spirits? If the spirit comes from God, not from earthly parents, how can we inherit sin from our parents?

Matthew 19:14; 18:3 - The kingdom of God belongs to those who are converted and become like little children. But if little children are totally depraved, why should we become like them? Does conversion make us totally depraved?

Jesus prayed for children and blessed them (Mark 10:14-16), but He did not baptize them. They did not need baptism, because they were acceptable just as they were. But how could this be if they were born total depraved?

The Bible teaches that sinners must be baptized to be saved (Acts 2:38; 22:16; Mark 16:16; 1 Pet. 3:21; Rom. 3:6,4; Gal. 3:26,27). The consequence of original sin is that babies who die without baptism are all lost eternally. But the Bible teaches that babies are innocent and need no baptism. So original sin is not true.

we have to go by the bible, not by our own private workings out.

 

[sawdust]

This does not prove babes are all born sinners

See scriptures posted above that prove this to be false doctrine.

The problem is if you deny that one man's offence made us all sinners then you must also deny that one's man's righteousness could be counted for our salvation.

 

[Evmur]

If you knew your bible better you would know WHY your statement is false.
You are just re false reformed theology talking points

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Deuteronomy 24:16
Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin.

If original sin is true, then babies are born guilty of sin, totally depraved, destined for eternal punishment. All passages already studied disprove this. Now note specifically:

Psalm 106:37,38; Jeremiah 19:4,5 - In sacrificing babies to idols, people shed the blood of innocent people. But if the babies inherited Adam's sin, they would be guilty and worthy of death. [cf. Jer. 32:35]

Romans 7:9 - Paul (representative of people in general) was alive before sin came, but then he died. How, if people are totally depraved since birth? (cf. v11)

Hebrews 12:9; Zechariah 12:1; Ecclesiastes 12:7 - Our fleshly nature comes from our earthly fathers (like Adam). But God is the Father of our spirits. God gives the spirit and forms it within man.

Total depravity says man is "wholly defiled in ... soul and body." Does the sinless Father in heaven give us wholly defiled, totally depraved spirits? If the spirit comes from God, not from earthly parents, how can we inherit sin from our parents?

Matthew 19:14; 18:3 - The kingdom of God belongs to those who are converted and become like little children. But if little children are totally depraved, why should we become like them? Does conversion make us totally depraved?

Jesus prayed for children and blessed them (Mark 10:14-16), but He did not baptize them. They did not need baptism, because they were acceptable just as they were. But how could this be if they were born total depraved?

The Bible teaches that sinners must be baptized to be saved (Acts 2:38; 22:16; Mark 16:16; 1 Pet. 3:21; Rom. 3:6,4; Gal. 3:26,27). The consequence of original sin is that babies who die without baptism are all lost eternally. But the Bible teaches that babies are innocent and need no baptism. So original sin is not true.

we are not punished for our parents ... but we are punished. Do you know someone who has never sinned?

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

we have to go by the bible, not by our own private workings out.

nope he was right on the mark mankind are born in a fallen state with a dead blood that needs atoning that is infected.

There not born a sinner or evil.

He showed you scripture to validate it.

 

[Stan_the_Man]

we have to go by the bible, not by our own private workings out.

I'm going by the bible while you are denying the bible.

The problem is if you deny that one man's offence made us all sinners then you must also deny that one's man's righteousness could be counted for our salvation.

God's Word teaches we are all responsible for our own sin, NOT the sin Adam committed.

God did not make us all sinners when we were born because He's not the devil.

we are not punished for our parents ... but we are punished. Do you know someone who has never sinned?

We are all responsible for our own sin, NOT the sin Adam committed.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

When we look at the "Age of Accountability" factor, Jesus is clear we need to believe who He is to be saved.
At what Age can someone know who Jesus is before understanding to believe in him?
It's not at birth or possibly until age 4 or 5 and for some older.
So I believe children are not in danger until they are old enough to know they need to believe in Jesus.

 

[Evmur]

I'm going by the bible while you are denying the bible.






God's Word teaches we are all responsible for our own sin, NOT the sin Adam committed.

God did not make us all sinners when we were born because He's not the devil.






We are all responsible for our own sin, NOT the sin Adam committed.

we go by the bible

As by one man sin came into the world and death through sin so sin passed upon all men for that all have sinned.

You will die for your own sin not for Adam's. I trust God has had mercy upon you and you are saved.

 

[Genez]

God's Word teaches we are all responsible for our own sin, NOT the sin Adam committed.

We are responsible for our sins only after we are born again.
God took the responsibility for us being born sinners by means of the Cross.

If there were no atonement on the Cross?
God could have chosen to simply wipe out all mankind.
Thrown out simply because of being useless and defective by nature.

Since God dealt on the Cross with the issue of us being born with Adam's nature?
The responsibility fell upon the regenerate after salvation to deal with their sins according to God's Word.


grace and patience...........................