Predestination is misunderstood...

[Thunderrr-mental]

Grace generally simply means unmerited favor. Simply creating someone meets this definition. Providing clothing, food, any possession is grace because every good gift comes from God. The grace that leads to hearing and engenders faith isn't provided to all, but that doesn't preclude other things God gives to all as less than grace.

you can't keep using grace to over power your errors Cameron

 

[Magenta]

Nor was Abraham. Do you think he didn't know he was a sinner?

All these tangents. I am not interested in your garden path. What I said was in response to this:

The Holy Spirit cannot communicate spiritual matters to a person that is not already born again of the Spirit.

How then does the Holy Spirit convict the world of sin, because they do not believe in the One God sent?

 

[maxamir]

I don't agree with this view.
God is not the origin of evil.
Let me give an inappropriate example.
The pleasure of having sex with your wife or husband, This pleasant feeling is the product of God's design.
But the side effect of this pleasure is that someone wants to have sex with anyone.This is the birth of evil.Like a robot out of control.Perhaps this metaphor is not very appropriate.So God made the law.We should act according to his law.Be an obedient robot.

I never said that God is evil by allowing evil to enter this world at the choice of man through the temptation of the devil but He did so to demonstrate His holy hatred of evil to the praise of the glory of His eternal justice and show His holy love in saving His people from that evil in Christ Jesus to the praise of the glory of His eternal grace.

No one would know of any of God's holy attributes unless the Fall had happened. Satan meant it for evil but God meant it for good!

Gen 50:20 But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive.

 

[Genez]

I'm in full agreement on this part

You can not show me in Scripture its true.

 

[sawdust]

Then why are you arguing with me? Last I spoke to you you had falsely accused me of saying things I definitely had not.

What? I wasn't arguing with you. You asked how can a man know he is sinner? I explained how God uses moral issues to awaken him to his situation. You seemed to misunderstand what I meant so I explained further. Why do you think Jesus spoke in parables about natural events? He wasn't just speaking to those who were born again but to those who were being drawn by the Father to Him as well.

And as far as I am concerned I haven't falsely accused you of saying anything. You have a habit of projecting your assumptions onto others and then claiming it's what they are saying when they are not.

You need to chill a little and not be so hypersensitive.

 

[sawdust]

All these tangents. I am not interested in your garden path. What I said was in response to this:

How then does the Holy Spirit convict the world of sin, because they do not believe in the One God sent?

Fine. Go plant your own garden then.

If you believed in Christ before you knew God existed or that you were a sinner you're unique. The rest of us had to know God existed and that we needed a saviour (ie.knew we were sinners) before we could hear the Gospel and believe on Christ.

 

[maxamir]

Grace generally simply means unmerited favor. Simply creating someone meets this definition. Providing clothing, food, any possession is grace because every good gift comes from God. The grace that leads to hearing and engenders faith isn't provided to all, but that doesn't preclude other things God gives to all as less than grace.

From man's perspective all things that are favourable to him may seem to be grace but from God's perspective the good things that He gives to some actually works toward their greater condemnation which is clearly seen in Psalm 73 where Asaph found out that the supposed blessings of the wicked were only given to set them in slippery places (v 17-18) which confirms that God justly hands people over to the sin that they love (Rom 1:24-28) to store wrath for the day of wrath (Rom 2:5) and fill up the measure of their sins (1 Th 2:16) so as to fatten them for their just slaughter (Jam 5:5, Jer 12:3).

Christ made it very clear that to whom much is given, much is required (Luk 12:48) and those who experienced the goodness of His miracles and message were more accountable than those who perished in Sodom and Gomorrah (Mat 11:23-24).

The Gospel is the greatest goodness this world has and will ever know yet Scripture tells us it goes forth as an aroma of life unto life to some but to others it is an aroma of death unto death (2 Cor 2:14-16). Those who hear the Gospel are more accountable than those who haven't and those who hear the Gospel more than others are more accountable than those who have heard it less.

Before you bring up the rain and sunshine in Matthew 5:45, I ask you whether that rain which God can turn into floods and that sunshine which God can turn in to droughts that can both kill many people, can therefore be called common wrath?

 

[maxamir]

That's one verse where satan was cast out, but it it doesn't suggest it was before the fall of Adam

I'm refering to other scriptures that suggest he fell after the fall, which clearly suggests satan made the wrong choice...which would suggest if he had made the right choice he would not of fell.

And there's many many scriptures that suggests God prewarns people before they fall,

Which means by making the right choice you can change your destiny

The Scriptures declare that no one seeks God, so how can someone choose anything he doesn't see (John 3:3) or seek?

Rom 3:11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS; THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS AFTER GOD.

God supremely sovereign in all things including the people He chooses. Below are some Scriptures I pray that you will humbly ponder.

Pro_21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, Like the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He wishes.

Psa 65:4a Blessed is the man You choose, And cause to approach You,

Psa 110:3a Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power,

Jas 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

 

[Obedience]

The Scriptures declare that no one seeks God, so how can someone choose anything he doesn't see (John 3:3) or seek?

Rom 3:11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS; THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS AFTER GOD.

God supremely sovereign in all things including the people He chooses. Below are some Scriptures I pray that you will humbly ponder.

Pro_21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, Like the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He wishes.

Psa 65:4a Blessed is the man You choose, And cause to approach You,

Psa 110:3a Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power,

Jas 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

So God's mercy proves that he can change anyone he wishes to change.
So who else can't be saved by God?

 

[Cameron143]

From man's perspective all things that are favourable to him may seem to be grace but from God's perspective the good things that He gives to some actually works toward their greater condemnation which is clearly seen in Psalm 73 where Asaph found out that the supposed blessings of the wicked were only given to set them in slippery places (v 17-18) which confirms that God justly hands people over to the sin that they love (Rom 1:24-28) to store wrath for the day of wrath (Rom 2:5) and fill up the measure of their sins (1 Th 2:16) so as to fatten them for their just slaughter (Jam 5:5, Jer 12:3).

Christ made it very clear that to whom much is given, much is required (Luk 12:48) and those who experienced the goodness of His miracles and message were more accountable than those who perished in Sodom and Gomorrah (Mat 11:23-24).

The Gospel is the greatest goodness this world has and will ever know yet Scripture tells us it goes forth as an aroma of life unto life to some but to others it is an aroma of death unto death (2 Cor 2:14-16). Those who hear the Gospel are more accountable than those who haven't and those who hear the Gospel more than others are more accountable than those who have heard it less.

Before you bring up the rain and sunshine in Matthew 5:45, I ask you whether that rain which God can turn into floods and that sunshine which God can turn in to droughts that can both kill many people, can therefore be called common wrath?

I don't disagree with what you have written given how you have framed and limited grace. But I disagree with couching grace as you have.

 

[Inquisitor]

It seems like you do not know what the word Sovereignty means and need to look it up in a Dictionary.

Do the Scriptures describe God as being the things below?

1. Supremacy of authority or rule as exercised by a sovereign or sovereign state.
2. Royal rank, authority, or power.
3. Complete independence and self-government.
   
   View attachment 261590

Was Adam predestined to sin?

 

[PaulThomson]

Do you classify yourself as a "god?"

JESUS classifies those to whom the word of God comes as gods. Are you saying that your systematic theology overrules the Lord Jesus Christ?

 

[PaulThomson]

Do you classify yourself as a "god?"

JESUS classifies those to whom the word of God comes as gods. Are you saying that your systematic theology overrules the Lord Jesus Christ?

 

[Genez]

So God's mercy proves that he can change anyone he wishes to change.
So who else can't be saved by God?

God made men to know God is real.... They rejected what God's grace caused them to know!
That is why God punished these men so severely!


Romans 1:18-23


18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness
and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since
what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain
to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal
power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has
been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks
to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the
glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being
and birds and animals and reptiles.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

The Scriptures declare that no one seeks God, so how can someone choose anything he doesn't see (John 3:3) or seek?

Rom 3:11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS; THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS AFTER GOD.

God supremely sovereign in all things including the people He chooses. Below are some Scriptures I pray that you will humbly ponder.

Pro_21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, Like the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He wishes.

Psa 65:4a Blessed is the man You choose, And cause to approach You,

Psa 110:3a Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power,

Jas 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

The scriptures declare if you do what is right you will be accepted by God,.and you will change your destiny, and the scriptures declare that God prewarns you to do what is right before you do wrong, so you do have a choice to do what is right and seek God.

So once again you choose to shoot without seeking.

Oh and I'm still waiting for you to declare the scriptures that suggest satan fell after the fall, which I know you know.

 

[Obedience]

God made men to know God is real.... They rejected what God's grace caused them to know!
That is why God punished these men so severely!


Romans 1:18-23


18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness
and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since
what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain
to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal
power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has
been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks
to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the
glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being
and birds and animals and reptiles.

Punishment is a learning process that these people need to go through.I don't think a person will be stupid enough to experience punishment will not understand where his mistakes are.

Everything God does is good.I think people's stupidity comes from the lack of authority to discipline them.

God is the authority.I prefer to call it different education methods.Punishment is also a means of education.

But I can't imagine what kind of punishment God's punishment is with my understanding.

 

[Sipsey]

Punishment is a learning process that these people need to go through.I don't think a person will be stupid enough to experience punishment will not understand where his mistakes are.

Everything God does is good.I think people's stupidity comes from the lack of authority to discipline them.

God is the authority.I prefer to call it different education methods.Punishment is also a means of education.

But I can't imagine what kind of punishment God's punishment is with my understanding.

So, by that logic God must not be a good teacher, because many will not heed His teaching.

 

[Genez]

The scriptures declare if you do what is right you will be accepted by God,.

Why don't you believe it then?

Do you you really not know how wrong you keep being?
I think you do...

 

[Obedience]

So, by that logic God must not be a good teacher, because many will not heed His teaching.

Because he is a good teacher.God will expose the ugliness of these people to us.Let us learn from the ignorance of those people.They only appeared in front of us as negative materials for learning in the classroom of God.

 

[Genez]

Punishment is a learning process that these people need to go through.I don't think a person will be stupid enough to experience punishment will not understand where his mistakes are.

Everything God does is good.I think people's stupidity comes from the lack of authority to discipline them.

God is the authority.I prefer to call it different education methods.Punishment is also a means of education.

But I can't imagine what kind of punishment God's punishment is with my understanding.

Keep reading that chapter?

They become reprobates and God-haters. They were not gaining correction from being punished like a believer can benefit....
Its even says they know they deserve death.... Read that chapter and you will see...