My Calvinist brother said "Uh uh" Regeneration precedes faith-how do you answer?
Predestination is misunderstood...
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It's just the estate of fallen man. Dead people can't respond. Neither can spiritually dead people.
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Rom 10:17 So, then, emunah comes from hearing, and hearing comes through the Dvar HaMoshiach.
So then faith comes by hearing,.... That is, by preaching; for the word hearing is used in the same sense as in the preceding verse; and designs the report of the Gospel, or the preaching of the word, which is the means God makes use of, to convey faith into the hearts of his people; for preachers are ministers, or instruments, by whom others believe:
and hearing by the word of God; or "of Christ", as some copies read, and so do the Vulgate Latin and Ethiopic versions; and intends either the holy Scriptures, which have God for their author, and Christ for the subject of them; and which furnish the men of God, or ministers of the Gospel, with proper materials to preach; and so hearing or preaching is by them, or else the command of God or Christ, which ρημα more properly signifies; and the sense is, that men preach the Gospel in obedience to the commandment of the everlasting God, and according to the orders, mission, and commission, warrant and authority, of the Lord Jesus Christ: and so these words are the conclusion, and sum of the whole; that as invocation is owing to faith, so faith to hearing, hearing to preaching, preaching to a mission; whence it follows, that it is the original will of God, to send forth his apostles and ministers, to preach the Gospel to the Gentiles, as well as to the Jews; that they hearing might believe, and believing call upon the Lord, and so be saved by him: it is a saying of the Jews, שמיעה בדבור תליא, "hearing depends upon the word" (e).
(e) Zohar in Deut. fol. 110. 3.
Gill
faith. *Rom_10:8; *Rom_10:14, **Rom_1:16, *Luk_16:29-31, *1Co_1:18-24, Gal_3:2; Gal_3:5, Eph_2:8, *Col_1:4-6, **1Th_2:13, *2Th_2:13; *2Th_2:14, *Heb_4:2, *Jas_1:18-21, *1Pe_1:23-25; *1Pe_2:1; *1Pe_2:2.
by hearing. T888, **Rom_1:16, Job_42:5, Psa_18:44; *Psa_19:7; *Psa_19:8; *Psa_19:11; *Psa_119:105; *Psa_119:130, Pro_6:23; Pro_8:33-34, Isa_2:3; Isa_55:2-3; Isa_55:10-12, *Mar_4:24; *Mar_4:25, Luk_9:11, Joh_1:37; **Joh_5:39; Joh_6:63; **Joh_20:31, Act_4:4; Act_10:22; Act_10:36-43; Act_15:7; +**Act_17:11; +**Act_17:12, 1Co_1:21, *Gal_3:2; *Gal_3:5, Eph_1:13, Col_1:6, Heb_4:2, *Jas_1:21, *2Pe_1:19, *Rev_1:3.
and hearing. FS16, +Gen_1:27, +*Jer_23:28; +*Jer_23:29, *Mar_4:24, Luk_8:11; Luk_8:21; +*Luk_11:28, *2Co_2:17, **Heb_4:12; **Heb_4:13, Rev_1:9.
by the word. Gr. rhēma (S# G4487), Mar_9:32 note. T1115, Rom_10:8, *Pro_4:20-22, **1Th_2:13, +**2Ti_3:15-17, *Jas_1:18, *1Pe_1:23.
of God. Luk_3:2; **Luk_4:4, Joh_3:34; **Joh_8:47, Eph_6:17, Heb_6:5; Heb_11:3; Heb_13:7, **1Pe_1:25, Significant ancient authorities support the alternate reading "of Christ," but Gifford cites Meyer, De Wette, Lange, Philippi, etc., who "agree in regarding it as a gloss intended to define more precisely the meaning of "by the word of God." Furthermore, if the alternate reading is accepted, it is the only occurrence of rēma Christou in the New Testament. Joh_5:38; Joh_8:37, Col_3:16, 1Pe_1:11, 1Jn_1:10.
Shalom brother-very tired.
J.
it is "a matter of theological debate-Calvin and Arminian" but I do concur with the -"dead in trespasses and sins"
Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
και υμας οντας νεκρους τοις παραπτωμασιν και ταις αμαρτιαις
And you being dead in your peysha'im and chatta'im,
And you hath he quickened,.... The design of the apostle in this and some following verses, is to show the exceeding sinfulness of sin, and to set forth the sad estate and condition of man by nature, and to magnify the riches of the grace of God, and represent the exceeding greatness of his power in conversion: the phrase
hath he quickened, is not in the original text, but is supplied from Eph_2:5, where it will be met with and explained: here those who are quickened with Christ, and by the power and grace of God, are described in their natural and unregenerate estate,
who were dead in trespasses and sins; not only dead in Adam, in whom they sinned, being their federal head and representative; and in a legal sense, the sentence of condemnation and death having passed upon them; but in a moral sense, through original sin, and their own actual transgressions: which death lies in a separation from God, Father, Son, and Spirit, such are without God, and are alienated from the life of God, and they are without Christ, who is the author and giver of life, and they are sensual, not having the Spirit, who is the spirit of life; and in a deformation of the image of God, such are dead as to their understandings, wills, and affections, with respect to spiritual things, and as to their capacity to do any thing that is spiritually good; and in a loss of original righteousness; and in a privation of the sense of sin and misery; and in a servitude to sin, Satan, and the world: hence it appears, that man must be in himself unacceptable to God, infectious and hurtful to his fellow creatures, and incapable of helping himself: so it was usual with the Jews to call a wicked and ignorant man, a dead man; they say (i),
"there is no death like that of those that transgress the words of the law, who are called, מתים, "dead men", and therefore the Scripture says, "turn and live".''
And again (k),
"no man is called a living man, but he who is in the way of truth in this world.----And a wicked man who does not go in the way of truth, is called, מת, "a dead man".''
Shalom
J.
you don't get to receive salvation until your faith has been refined.
It's well supported through out scripture, and is consistent with a lot of teachings even of Jesus.
It isn't categorizing as you put it, it's the truth according to the word.
Well I leave you to discuss with other people here, im becoming more and more disheartened by the day here.
I've just had a pm of my best friend here who is on the verge of suicide because of ignorant people like Johann.
And is even more reluctant now to come here and share.
I've spent months trying to build him back up.
So your welcome to your new buddy.
And thanks for your support mate.
You will agree with Gill here-
Even when we were dead in sins,.... Eph_2:1.
Hath quickened us together with Christ: which may be understood either of regeneration, when a soul that is dead in a moral or spiritual sense, is quickened and made alive; a principle of life is infused, and acts of life are put forth; such have their spiritual senses, and these in exercise; they can feel the load and weight of sin; see their lost state and condition, the odiousness of sin, and the beauty of a Saviour, the insufficiency of their own righteousness, and the fulness and suitableness of Christ's; breathe after divine and spiritual things; speak in prayer to God, and the language of Canaan to fellow Christians; move towards Christ, exercise grace on him, act for him, and walk on in him: and this life they have not from themselves, for previous to it they are dead, and in this quickening work are entirely passive; nor can regenerate persons quicken themselves, when in dead and lifeless frames, and much less unregenerate sinners; but this is God's act, the act of God the Father; though not exclusive of the Son, who quickens whom he will; nor of the Spirit, who is the Spirit of life from Christ; and it is an instance of the exceeding greatness, both of his power and love; and this may be said to be done with Christ, because he is the procuring and meritorious cause of it, by his death and resurrection from the dead; and is the author and efficient cause of it; and he is the matter of it, it is not so much the quickened persons that live, as Christ that lives in them, and it is the same life he himself lives; and because he lives, they shall live also; it is in him as in the fountain, and in them as in the stream: or else this may be understood of justification; men are dead in a legal sense, and on account of sin, are under the sentence of death; though they naturally think themselves alive, and in a good state; but when the Spirit of God comes, he strikes dead all their hopes of life by a covenant of works; not merely by letting in the terrors of the law upon the conscience, but by showing the spirituality of it, and the exceeding sinfulness of sin; and how incapable they are of satisfying the law, for the transgressions of it; and then he works faith in them, whereby they revive and live; they see pardon and righteousness in Christ, and pray for the one, and plead the other; and also lay hold and live upon the righteousness of Christ, when the Spirit seals up the pardon of their sins to them, and passes the sentence of justification on them, and so they reckon themselves alive unto God; and this is the justification of life, the Scripture speaks of; and this is in consequence of their being quickened with Christ, at the time of his resurrection; for when he rose from the dead, they rose with him; when he was justified, they were justified in him; and in this sense when he was quickened, they were quickened with him:
by grace ye are saved: the Claromontane copy and the Vulgate Latin version read, "by whose grace"; and the Arabic and Ethiopic versions, "by his grace"; either by the grace of him that quickens, or by the grace of Christ with whom they were quickened; the Syriac version renders it, "by his grace he hath redeemed us"; which seems to refer to the redeeming grace of Christ; and so the Ethiopic version, "and hath delivered us by his grace"; and there is a change of the person into "us", which seems more agreeable to what goes before, and follows after;
J.
Something to ponder on this "theological debate" till Messiah come-
Scriptures supporting the view that regeneration precedes faith:
Ephesians 2:1 - "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins."
John 6:44 - "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him."
John 3:3 - "Jesus answered him, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.'"
Romans 8:7-8 - "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God."
1 Corinthians 2:14 - "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."
Scriptures supporting the view that faith precedes regeneration:
John 3:16 - "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."
Romans 10:17 - "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ."
Acts 16:31 - "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
Ephesians 2:8-9 - "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
Galatians 3:26 - "For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith."
These verses represent a selection of passages commonly referenced by theologians and scholars on both sides of the debate regarding the relationship between regeneration and faith in Christian soteriology.
Paradoxical-tension-filled.
Shalom
J.
Jesus' words in Matthew 17:20-21 Faith the size of a mustard seed moved the mountain of my unbelie
Faith the size of a mustard seed moved the mountain of my unbelief f
Amen it’s hard for people to accept this part
“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
Luke 13:3 KJV
“I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”
Luke 5:32 KJV
“for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;”
Romans 3:23 KJV
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
2 Peter 3:9
Sin and death are connected
Are you an artist?
Jesus' words in Matthew 17:20-21 Faith the size of a mustard seed moved the mountain of my unbelie
Faith the size of a mustard seed moved the mountain of my unbelief f
J.
I design digital collages using what is called "ephemera" (I like that word .
), which is individual bits, such as simple borders and more intricate frames, various backgrounds, flowers, butterflies, skies, clouds, stars, special effects, and lots of human parts (starting with a face which I make many changes to, especially the features = eyes, nose, mouth, hair), and edits to each element as they are added, such as size, colour, contrast, chroma, lightness, brightness, exposure (I know those 3 things sound like they could be the same but they each react differently), etc, as I attempt to bring the whole into a harmonious balance. Eh, I work in photofinishing and have used photoshop fairly remedially there, though my main duties have always been printing, colour correcting, and quality control. It's the only thing I knew I wanted to do after doing darkroom work as part of the photography course during the year of college I attended way back when. I collect the individual bits (I now have multiple thousands) mostly from sites that offer them free for use in personal projects with the caveat of no financial gain (I'm fine with that). I have not done much since early November, though did a Christmas "card" and also a new year's panel. I have been on a bit of a Sabbatical after doing this for six years. Here (<= link) is a post where I show a couple of examples of the types of changes I make to faces... and on the previous page of that thread I showed a bit of my process by making a couple of animated gifs .
They can if God first applies grace to their situation so they can respond of their own free will.
Even once we are alive, we still need grace first in order to understand the scriptures and live the Christian life.
No-one goes anywhere without grace.
To receive salvation, you first must be saved by faith, then you receive salvation By God's Good will.
It's quite clear that Saul was predestined to be saved by faith,
As Samuel the prophet told Saul, the spirit has accepted you as the king of Isreal, because Samuel said to saul, the spirit will come upon you, and you will prophecy, and you will be changed, (for better good).
Its more than clear then that the spirit can come upon you and move you, and give you faith.
It's also clear that until you receive salvation you can also be handed over to exile or a reprobate mind untill you honor your personal walk with the spirit.
As it's also clear Saul was clearly sent into exile by God, but we have no right to judge he lost his salvation or that he was saved in the first place,
So the correct teaching is God chastises those who he loves untill they have humbled themselves and conformed to the personal walk he gives each and every person who calls on him,
The bottom line is God does not tolerated people who deliberately sin.
And he will not give anyone salvation untill they have proven there loyality to him and untill they have completely surrenderd to him.
He cast his angels out of heaven, who where entrusted with the highest authority.
His authority demands loyality, and his cross demands that each and every person who come to his son, changes for the better Good.
His cross is also the sword of justice and truth and the word that judges everyone, it's also the sword that Jesus came on his last visit.
Jesus said do not think I have come to bring peace, but I have come to bring a sword. Which means he came to save the world, and most of this world does not want to be conformed, so his word will cause unrest. Because the wages for sin is death.
Which means his sword, the cross will judge each and everyone of us accordingly.. and each and everyone of us will be Judged, for our actions for our ways to honour and obey in our personal walk, for our ways to love.
And nobody will receive salvation untill he says so.
Because Jesus has come not to bring peace but a sword and he has come to fulfill the law in each and every one of us.
And that means being baptised in water.
It also means not to judge, who or who hasn't lost there salvation or received salvation..
It also mean not to call people trolls for speaking the truth.
May God have mercy on your personal grievances
It's quite clear that Saul was predestined to be saved by faith,
As Samuel the prophet told Saul, the spirit has accepted you as the king of Isreal, because Samuel said to saul, the spirit will come upon you, and you will prophecy, and you will be changed, (for better good).
Its more than clear then that the spirit can come upon you and move you, and give you faith.
It's also clear that until you receive salvation you can also be handed over to exile or a reprobate mind untill you honor your personal walk with the spirit.
As it's also clear Saul was clearly sent into exile by God, but we have no right to judge he lost his salvation or that he was saved in the first place,
So the correct teaching is God chastises those who he loves untill they have humbled themselves and conformed to the personal walk he gives each and every person who calls on him,
The bottom line is God does not tolerated people who deliberately sin.
And he will not give anyone salvation untill they have proven there loyality to him and untill they have completely surrenderd to him.
He cast his angels out of heaven, who where entrusted with the highest authority.
His authority demands loyality, and his cross demands that each and every person who come to his son, changes for the better Good.
His cross is also the sword of justice and truth and the word that judges everyone, it's also the sword that Jesus came on his last visit.
Jesus said do not think I have come to bring peace, but I have come to bring a sword. Which means he came to save the world, and most of this world does not want to be conformed, so his word will cause unrest. Because the wages for sin is death.
Which means his sword, the cross will judge each and everyone of us accordingly.. and each and everyone of us will be Judged, for our actions for our ways to honour and obey in our personal walk, for our ways to love.
And nobody will receive salvation untill he says so.
Because Jesus has come not to bring peace but a sword and he has come to fulfill the law in each and every one of us.
And that means being baptised in water.
It also means not to judge, who or who hasn't lost there salvation or received salvation..
It also mean not to call people trolls for speaking the truth.
May God have mercy on your personal grievances
I understand this view but our sanctification is complete and perfect and we must totally get that in order to work towards it and attain to it. Jesus is our Sanctification.
Our working it out in our life is a process just as our salvation is. But we must have the solid rock to stand upon. The absolute assurance that Jesus has done it.
William and Catherine Booth [Salvation Army] used to spend hours every day on their knees begging God to make them holy or sanctifying them. Then that scripture dawned on him "Christ is our sanctification" and he said he never prayed that prayer again.
NT HOLINESS / SANCTIFICATION
The NT asserts that when sinners turn to Jesus in repentance and faith (cf. Mark 1:15; Acts 3:16,19; 20:21), they are instantaneously justified and sanctified. This is their new position in Christ. His righteousness has been imputed to them (cf. Gen. 15:6; Romans 4). They are declared right and holy (a forensic act of God).
But the NT also urges believers on to holiness or sanctification. It is both a theological position in the finished work of Jesus Christ and a call to be Christlike in attitude and actions in daily life. As salvation is a free gift and a cost-everything lifestyle, so too, is sanctification.
Initial Response A Progressive Christlikeness
Acts 26:18
Romans 15:16
1 Corinthians 1:2-3; 6:11
2 Thessalonians 2:13
Hebrews 2:11; 10:10,14; 13:12
2 Peter 1:2 Romans 6:19
2 Cor. 7:1
Ephesians 1:4; 2:10
1 Thess. 3:13; 4:3-4,7; 5:2
1 Timothy 2:15
2 Timothy 2:21
1 Peter 1:15-16
Hebrews 12:14