Predestination is misunderstood...

[sawdust]

But God does! If he chose to "befriend" his elect in eternity, then how could he not also freely choose to not "befriend" the non-elect? Consider carefully this passage, please, and it's logical implications:

Because He didn't chose to "befriend" us, He chose what to do with us because He knew we are His friends. That's what predestination is. It's very simple, From God's omniscience He saw who would believe and who would not. He then separated the believers from the unbelievers (in His mind). Now, (looking at the believers only group) from his knowing us (My friends) beforehand (foreknowledge), He chose when and where to place us. You and I got placed in Christ, King David got placed in Israel, Adam the Garden, Noah the Ark etc. etc. Each placement has a particular purpose for God's plan to be worked out according to His will.

But God does! If he chose to "befriend" his elect in eternity, then how could he not also freely choose to not "befriend" the non-elect? Consider carefully this passage, please, and it's logical implications:

Rom 9:14-15
14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
NIV

So, since God freely chooses, according to the counsel of his own will (Eph 1:11), who will be recipients of his mercy and compassion, then the opposite must also be true; that is to say, God must also freely and intentionally and deliberately determine who who he will pass over, i.e. on whom he will not have mercy and compassion. Very clearly, God does not universally bestow mercy and compassion on all, in terms of salvation, otherwise the entire world would be saved.

Ah yes, the potter's wheel. Guessing you have never done pottery.

That is your assumption (what I bolded). The problem is you assume this passage means a division between receiving mercy and being given no mercy whatsoever. God is merciful. Everyone receives mercy and grace, because this is who God is. It's a matter of how much or how little one receives. When speaking with Moses, it was a matter of Moses being given an extra dose of mercy and grace. (Ex.33:19) Paul is not saying there are those who receive mercy and there are those who receive no mercy. He is saying, under the pressure of the potter's wheel, the clay responds to His touch. Some clay resists and some clay yields. It's the nature of the clay and God will do with it as He sees fit.

No-one believes against their will.

 

[Shepherd]

It actually means a lot to me.

I have never in all my life understood being saved by an unmerited favour.

I have however understood being saved by Good will.

Honestly I really think all the people who save themselves have believed there saved by an unmerited favour..

I see unmerited favours taken all the goodness out of good will, and not truly appreciating exactly what good will stands for.

Honesty my life time experience of those who say unmerited favour, has been one of turmoil, where by I have never come across such person who has been humble when under correctness.

Seems like you may be confusing "unmerited favor" with "unconditional election"? Not sure. If not, then I don't know what you mean. If so, please know that I consider every petal of the "tulip" to be false doctrine. i

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

"Favor" is one of the definitions of Strong's. So, then the question becomes: Is this favor that God grants to some due them? Is grace a debt that God owes anyone?

If the Law can only give sinners what they deserve, then grace must differ since there is no man who doesn't sin. Grace must give men what they don't deserve, i.e. unmerited favor. And this understanding comports well with the contrast being made in Jn 1:17.

Again Gods good will saves any individual, not an unmerited favour

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Seems like you may be confusing "unmerited favor" with "unconditional election"? Not sure. If not, then I don't know what you mean. If so, please know that I consider every petal of the "tulip" to be false doctrine. i

No, there's better ways to see predestined, and saved by Grace.

Predestined in the Calvinist view has its own meaning.

Just like predestined in other scriptures has different meanings.

Its a fact that God wills people's steps.

When we look at the word will, and do a study of God good will, we see many many scriptures Of God determining peoples steps.

So when a predestination and free will debate crops up.

All of this just gets over looked.

Because to many people are using a terminology created by one person, John Calvin to debate with.

Same for free will.

Many people associate free will as freedom to choose,

For most part when I speak with people who believe God saved them with an unmerited favour, i see there free will start to lake liberties.


Basically free will on a human level is by its own merit disastrous, and needs God's will to direct mankind's steps.

I am neither Calvinist or a gracey liberty taker,

 

[John146]

The word predestinated as stated in scripture, 4 times, has nothing to do with salvation. It has to do with those already saved and what God has in store for them in the future.

 

[Cameron143]

The word predestinated as stated in scripture, 4 times, has nothing to do with salvation. It has to do with those already saved and what God has in store for them in the future.

Predestination is linked to election?

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

The word predestinated as stated in scripture, 4 times, has nothing to do with salvation. It has to do with those already saved and what God has in store for them in the future.

The will of the father is something that sets a plan in advance, and it can be seen hundreds of times in scripture.

So it's really down to how you view predestinated. Because it's literally in the bible hundreds of times .

 

[John146]

Predestination is linked to election?

Election is linked to service, never salvation.

 

[John146]

The will of the father is something that sets a plan in advance, and it can be seen hundreds of times in scripture.

So it's really down to how you view predestinated. Because it's literally in the bible hundreds of times .

I'd rather deal with the passages that actually contain the word. Using a passage that does not contain the word is not honest study.

 

[Cameron143]

Election is linked to service, never salvation.

So God chose Jacob for service and not Esau?

 

[John146]

So God chose Jacob for service and not Esau?

Romans 9
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

 

[John146]

So God chose Jacob for service and not Esau?

First mention principle. Jesus Christ was God's elect to serve the purpose of reconciling man to himself.

Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

 

[Cameron143]

First mention principle. Jesus Christ was God's elect to serve the purpose of reconciling man to himself.

Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

Mine elect is a recognition of God's sovereignty to choose?

 

[Cameron143]

Romans 9
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Again, God's sovereign right and ability to choose? Isn't Esau chosen to serve?

 

[John146]

Mine elect is a recognition of God's sovereignty to choose?

God's right to choose? Yes. But it's never in the context of salvation. God has chosen his Son, Jesus Christ, as the means for man to be reconciled to God. Man must believe the gospel of his Son to be reconciled.

 

[Cameron143]

God's right to choose? Yes. But it's never in the context of salvation. God has chosen his Son, Jesus Christ, as the means for man to be reconciled to God. Man must believe the gospel of his Son to be reconciled.

But in Romans 9 isn't Esau the one chosen to serve?

 

[John146]

But in Romans 9 isn't Esau the one chosen to serve?

Correct! Jacob is the one chosen to bring forth promise seed. He was not chosen to be saved. Because of his election, Esau, the elder son, would serve the younger son, Jacob.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

I'd rather deal with the passages that actually contain the word. Using a passage that does not contain the word is not honest study.

an honest study of predestinated, since when has that happened.

If you can't see predestinated as a plan, then I'm afraid the most of the bible Is lost.

Most words have at least 20 definitions to one word.

I didn't realise God is limited, so I'll leave you to shut the lid,. And debate with all the imaginary Calvinists who are here then.

I don't expect any thing else.

I once did a study of will here, and well let's just say what should have been a blessing was very unpleasant

 

[Cameron143]

Correct! Jacob is the one chosen to bring forth promise seed. He was not chosen to be saved. Because of his election, Esau, the elder son, would serve the younger son, Jacob.

How do you separate a promised seed from salvation?

 

[Genez]

You posted verses along with other "stuff".

Before God predestinates a man, He must first know him, thus, have foreknowledge. For God to know a man, he must first become a son of God.

If He was able to die for the sins of the whole world? He needed to know billions of people before they were ever born to bear their sins on the Cross. He bore the sins of all men, not just believers.

"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."

1 John 2:2​

He had to know us all a lot more than we can ever realize, and about about everyone, to ever do that.

To pay for the sins of billions who were not yet born? And, to know every sin they would ever commit?
Means that God's foreknowledge far exceeds our comprehension!

selah....