Predestination is misunderstood...
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He enables everyone..That is why He died for the sins even of those who will reject Him.
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only,
Even the degenerated reprobate, as seen in Romans 1:18-30, were shown that God is real in His drawing of them.
They rejected and suppressed what they knew with lies and evil.
So be it....
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only,
but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:2
Even the degenerated reprobate, as seen in Romans 1:18-30, were shown that God is real in His drawing of them.
They rejected and suppressed what they knew with lies and evil.
So be it....
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Apostle Paul disagrees. Romans 1:
1 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
1 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
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we were chosen to be saved at the right time, we were in Christ but consigned to the headship of Adam along with the rest of mankind. To exclude everyone else? NO but that God might have mercy upon all.
Everything with God starts with grace and mercy ... it was Calvin who put the gloomy interpretation upon it.
But then so did Arminius
Why did he throw out predestination and election which he did in effect?
Because he thought exactly the same as Calvin, he came to exactly the same conclusion that "if God has predestined and chosen some He must of necessity have passed over all others" Arminius thought that too, it's human logic, he couldn't see around it. SO he in effect demotes the doctrines of predestination and election and promotes far above the doctrines human freewill and choice [of course along with God's grace] as the means by which we are saved.
There is not a scrap of scripture to support such an idea. It is deadly poison. WHY? because it raises our human will [which is by no means free] to the level of God's will. Our will becomes sovereign, without our exercising our will [which is not free but in bondage] we cannot be saved. It makes us our own co-redeemers ... bah.
I say God saves who He wants to whether they want it or not. ... He makes them want it. He subdues the human will which is in rebellion to Him.
We are born again NOT by the will of man, NOR by the will of the flesh BUT by the will of God.
Everything with God starts with grace and mercy ... it was Calvin who put the gloomy interpretation upon it.
But then so did Arminius
Why did he throw out predestination and election which he did in effect?
Because he thought exactly the same as Calvin, he came to exactly the same conclusion that "if God has predestined and chosen some He must of necessity have passed over all others" Arminius thought that too, it's human logic, he couldn't see around it. SO he in effect demotes the doctrines of predestination and election and promotes far above the doctrines human freewill and choice [of course along with God's grace] as the means by which we are saved.
There is not a scrap of scripture to support such an idea. It is deadly poison. WHY? because it raises our human will [which is by no means free] to the level of God's will. Our will becomes sovereign, without our exercising our will [which is not free but in bondage] we cannot be saved. It makes us our own co-redeemers ... bah.
I say God saves who He wants to whether they want it or not. ... He makes them want it. He subdues the human will which is in rebellion to Him.
We are born again NOT by the will of man, NOR by the will of the flesh BUT by the will of God.
My brother you inserting into what the scripture says. You are putting the cart before the horse. YOU are saying God foreknew that they would obey the gospel and so elected them on that basis.
God put you in the womb my brother, He knitted you together, He knows the number of hairs upon your head. He knew every step you would ever take. How could He possibly predestine an unknown person or people?
This is the new one the devil has come out with by the way. It all comes from the foul stream of human freewill doctrine. The new doctrine gaining ground is that God does not know everything. It's true, this is big. It's called open view theology.
So first they have taken away God's omnipotence now they are onto His omniscience ... pretty soon we won't have God at all. These are evangelicals.
Our names were written in the Lamb's book of life before the world began ... isn't that WONDERFUL? doesn't it fill you with joy?
Because the immediate question is "what about everyone else?" THAT'S the sticking point, that's where we've been stuck for 500 years.
Because as your post kinda implies predestiny and election are unto the church not unto salvation per se.
Others can [and WILL be saved]
everybody says the last resurrection and judgement is unto damnation. Arminians say it as much as Calvins, Catholics and Protestants alike. But THE BIBLE DOES NOT SAY SO. The bible says they are raised to judgement. And God is gunna judge fairly, with equity.
God put you in the womb my brother, He knitted you together, He knows the number of hairs upon your head. He knew every step you would ever take. How could He possibly predestine an unknown person or people?
This is the new one the devil has come out with by the way. It all comes from the foul stream of human freewill doctrine. The new doctrine gaining ground is that God does not know everything. It's true, this is big. It's called open view theology.
So first they have taken away God's omnipotence now they are onto His omniscience ... pretty soon we won't have God at all. These are evangelicals.
Our names were written in the Lamb's book of life before the world began ... isn't that WONDERFUL? doesn't it fill you with joy?
Because the immediate question is "what about everyone else?" THAT'S the sticking point, that's where we've been stuck for 500 years.
Because as your post kinda implies predestiny and election are unto the church not unto salvation per se.
Others can [and WILL be saved]
everybody says the last resurrection and judgement is unto damnation. Arminians say it as much as Calvins, Catholics and Protestants alike. But THE BIBLE DOES NOT SAY SO. The bible says they are raised to judgement. And God is gunna judge fairly, with equity.
Here you go... A mini Greek lesson that would be helpful to expand our understanding......
The Greek means that God made them to be knowing God must be real... "Epignosis"
But? Because of their preferring evil by choice? They suppressed what God had made them to know and resorted to lies to suppress the truth that was made known to them.
They literally defy God!!!
That is why God punishes them. Punishes them by handing the males over to uncontrollable homosexuality....
It says its "punishment!"
For although they knew God..."
The Greek means that God made them to be knowing God must be real... "Epignosis"
But? Because of their preferring evil by choice? They suppressed what God had made them to know and resorted to lies to suppress the truth that was made known to them.
They literally defy God!!!
That is why God punishes them. Punishes them by handing the males over to uncontrollable homosexuality....
It says its "punishment!"
Names of the living are written in the book of life. Names can be blotted out of the book of life when one denies the Lord. During the tribulation, as in Revelation 17, names can be blotted out for worshipping the beast and taking his mark. The book of life was begun from the foundation of the world and continues until the end of Revelation 20.
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He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments,
and I will not blot out his name [title] from the Book of Life;
but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels." Rev 3:5
I learned from my pastor who was a full time Greek scholar, that the word "name" could also interchanged with the meaning of "title."
Receiving our title will be our reward. One of receiving a title from the Lord that will be blotted out and denied us.
A title for us to reign with Him.
Not all will qualify for the title crown, but all will be saved just the same.... 1 Cor 3:11-15
"God put you in the womb my brother, He knitted you together, He knows the number of hairs upon your head" - We all agree with that.
"He knew every step you would ever take". - There is nothing in scripture that says that. or clearly implies that.
"How could He possibly predestine an unknown person or people?" - Easily. He predestines the Son to incarnate, and defeat sin and death as a man, and he determines that all those who put their trust in and pledge allegiance to the Son are forgiven and made joint heirs with the Son of all that the Son has inherited as a faithful man.
"He knew every step you would ever take". - There is nothing in scripture that says that. or clearly implies that.
"How could He possibly predestine an unknown person or people?" - Easily. He predestines the Son to incarnate, and defeat sin and death as a man, and he determines that all those who put their trust in and pledge allegiance to the Son are forgiven and made joint heirs with the Son of all that the Son has inherited as a faithful man.
You are moving the goalposts.
I was responding to -
Genez said:
"I'm talking about "freed" will. You keep talking about free will.
There is no such thing as naturally having free will in relation to knowing God."
No. They knew God from birth because of their free will good choice. But at some point they made the evil choice to suppress that truth. Then they might freely change their mind many times back and forth before becoming stubborn in their rejection of the truth. So, your claim that "there is no such thing as naturally having free will in relation to knowing God" is wrong.
I was responding to -
Genez said:
"I'm talking about "freed" will. You keep talking about free will.
There is no such thing as naturally having free will in relation to knowing God."
No. They knew God from birth because of their free will good choice. But at some point they made the evil choice to suppress that truth. Then they might freely change their mind many times back and forth before becoming stubborn in their rejection of the truth. So, your claim that "there is no such thing as naturally having free will in relation to knowing God" is wrong.