Praise then Worship
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For the most part the disciples wrote their gospel accounts from personal experience - first hand accounts. This is what I now write.
My wife and I were saved in Oct 1972. I was baptised in the Holy Spirit about 2 weeks later confirmed with speaking in tongues. Now onto the church service pattern.
The body gathered twice on sunday and again on wed. There was a prayer room just off the sanctuary and several gathered to pray prior to the service. These prayers were mostly to break through into what is better called spiritual worship rather than praise or high praise. Scripture reference Hebrews 12 22-24 which shows the saints that have passed on are seeing the Father and giving worship because they actually see HIM. "'to the spirits of just men made perfect." I think this is the place that has been called 'high praise' but is actually spiritual worship.
We would sing fairly short songs mostly scripture with usually a 2 to 3 repeat. Then the congregation would move into individual / corporate worship. This would last maybe 2 to 5 minutes. The manifest presence of GOD was usually very heavy. Some shouting, some clapping hands, some tamborines. Then followed a silence of several minutes as we waited before the Lord waiting to see if He would speak to us through prophecy. At that time prophecy did not mean foretelling the future but "for exhortation edification or comfort." (1Cor 14:3). The entire praise/worship period was led my the Holy Spirit. We sang what He led us to sing and quit when He led us to. Sometimes there were 'words of knowledge' and/or words of wisdom'
We had only a piano and organ as instruments and they were off the platform out of sight.We also had only one person at the pulpit to maintain order. The worship leader was almost invisible. Very little stuff was on stage which are actually distractions to entering into spiritual worship.
There seems to be a place in worship were our worship here on earth mixes with the worship of the saints in heaven and a very strong flow of the Holy Spirit happens. They worship in fact because they can see whom they worship while we worship in faith.
When leaving the church I carried that manifest presence with me and it lasted several days. We went back on wed night for a fresh filling. That presence seems to have a liquid attribute that sort of fades - at least for me.
Living at this level will bring spiritual opposition. Our enemy hates this level of danger to what he calls his. So if you seek to go to this level - be ready for push back. Also be comforted that as Jesus told the woman at the well "The Father seeks those that will worship Him in Spirit and in truth.' We will have protection from the Father as we travel this road. Perhaps a comparison of an armed navy seal versus a boy scout with a pocket knife is good when walking in spiritual worship.
My wife and I were saved in Oct 1972. I was baptised in the Holy Spirit about 2 weeks later confirmed with speaking in tongues. Now onto the church service pattern.
The body gathered twice on sunday and again on wed. There was a prayer room just off the sanctuary and several gathered to pray prior to the service. These prayers were mostly to break through into what is better called spiritual worship rather than praise or high praise. Scripture reference Hebrews 12 22-24 which shows the saints that have passed on are seeing the Father and giving worship because they actually see HIM. "'to the spirits of just men made perfect." I think this is the place that has been called 'high praise' but is actually spiritual worship.
We would sing fairly short songs mostly scripture with usually a 2 to 3 repeat. Then the congregation would move into individual / corporate worship. This would last maybe 2 to 5 minutes. The manifest presence of GOD was usually very heavy. Some shouting, some clapping hands, some tamborines. Then followed a silence of several minutes as we waited before the Lord waiting to see if He would speak to us through prophecy. At that time prophecy did not mean foretelling the future but "for exhortation edification or comfort." (1Cor 14:3). The entire praise/worship period was led my the Holy Spirit. We sang what He led us to sing and quit when He led us to. Sometimes there were 'words of knowledge' and/or words of wisdom'
We had only a piano and organ as instruments and they were off the platform out of sight.We also had only one person at the pulpit to maintain order. The worship leader was almost invisible. Very little stuff was on stage which are actually distractions to entering into spiritual worship.
There seems to be a place in worship were our worship here on earth mixes with the worship of the saints in heaven and a very strong flow of the Holy Spirit happens. They worship in fact because they can see whom they worship while we worship in faith.
When leaving the church I carried that manifest presence with me and it lasted several days. We went back on wed night for a fresh filling. That presence seems to have a liquid attribute that sort of fades - at least for me.
Living at this level will bring spiritual opposition. Our enemy hates this level of danger to what he calls his. So if you seek to go to this level - be ready for push back. Also be comforted that as Jesus told the woman at the well "The Father seeks those that will worship Him in Spirit and in truth.' We will have protection from the Father as we travel this road. Perhaps a comparison of an armed navy seal versus a boy scout with a pocket knife is good when walking in spiritual worship.
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We know that Paul was stoned at Lystra. While there is not agreement on whether of not he was actually dead I think he was. Consider Paul’s writing in 2Cor 12 1-4. Being directed by the Holy Spirit with his writing, he was not allowed to say he was the one who went and saw heaven. It is usually accepted that it was in fact Paul. Further support is given in 2Cor 5 6-8 - especially verse 8. Why was Paul " confident " that absent from the body is to be present with the Lord? Because he had already been there where the Lord is.
Moving from the 2 Cor 12 verses to Hebrews 12 22-24. I submit that the author of Hebrew was Paul and that he hid his authorship because he revealed what he had seen and heard what is referenced in 2 Cor 12 1-4. It was necessary to hide himself as the author else he become puffed up with pride and so forth. It was needful that the information in both passages come out and just as necessary that Paul stay humble.
Paul actually saw the places mentioned in the Hebrews passage and heard what the living beings said and sang. The critical part of this passage for what I write is the last part of verse 23. "...and to the spirits of just men made perfect." These " spirits of just men" are humans that have died and are now in heaven. They worship the Father because they can see Him as He is.
It is important to now that in verse 22 the verb is present tense. We are already there in the spirit.
Based on the Hebrews scriptures, there is a place in our worship here on this earth where our worship mixes to a point that the realized presence of the Father flows from His throne down to and through us if we are in tune / harmony with those 'perfect spirits'. That flow of love, joy, peace might not be as strong as what is going on in heaven yet it much stronger than what we usually have in churches today.
Moving from the 2 Cor 12 verses to Hebrews 12 22-24. I submit that the author of Hebrew was Paul and that he hid his authorship because he revealed what he had seen and heard what is referenced in 2 Cor 12 1-4. It was necessary to hide himself as the author else he become puffed up with pride and so forth. It was needful that the information in both passages come out and just as necessary that Paul stay humble.
Paul actually saw the places mentioned in the Hebrews passage and heard what the living beings said and sang. The critical part of this passage for what I write is the last part of verse 23. "...and to the spirits of just men made perfect." These " spirits of just men" are humans that have died and are now in heaven. They worship the Father because they can see Him as He is.
It is important to now that in verse 22 the verb is present tense. We are already there in the spirit.
Based on the Hebrews scriptures, there is a place in our worship here on this earth where our worship mixes to a point that the realized presence of the Father flows from His throne down to and through us if we are in tune / harmony with those 'perfect spirits'. That flow of love, joy, peace might not be as strong as what is going on in heaven yet it much stronger than what we usually have in churches today.
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what happens when we get to spiritual worship
hebrews 12 22-24
the first 3 things listed are places, the next 5 listed are living beings the last is 'the blood' which i do not understand at this point and will not comment on.
As we ascend to true spiritual worship and get there in spirit, our praise blends with
1. ' an innumerable company of angles'
2. 'the general assembly and church of the firstborn
3. 'to GOD the judge of all
4. 'to the spirits of just men made perfect'
5. 'and to Jesus
6. 'to the blood of sprinkling
The next items 5 are living beings.( I did not feel comfortable not listing 'the blood of the sprinkling" nor do i understand why at this point of writing
hebrews 12 22-24
the first 3 things listed are places, the next 5 listed are living beings the last is 'the blood' which i do not understand at this point and will not comment on.
As we ascend to true spiritual worship and get there in spirit, our praise blends with
1. ' an innumerable company of angles'
2. 'the general assembly and church of the firstborn
3. 'to GOD the judge of all
4. 'to the spirits of just men made perfect'
5. 'and to Jesus
6. 'to the blood of sprinkling
The next items 5 are living beings.( I did not feel comfortable not listing 'the blood of the sprinkling" nor do i understand why at this point of writing
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example of liquid property of GOD'S presence
2kings 13;21
When a member of a robber gang died other members threw his body into a grave where the bones of Elisha were. On contact the robber came back to life. Elisha had been dead for quite a while as only his bones were left. Elisha asked for and received a double portion of annointing from Elijah and that annointing remained long after Elisha died.
When we enter and leave the manifest presence, that liquid attribute of GODs spirit that has been absorbed within us goes with us.
tangient - While the robber was dead where was his soul.? Had to be somewhere. Either Abraham’s bosom in the heart of the earth or hell. What did he have to say after being brought back from either place?
2kings 13;21
When a member of a robber gang died other members threw his body into a grave where the bones of Elisha were. On contact the robber came back to life. Elisha had been dead for quite a while as only his bones were left. Elisha asked for and received a double portion of annointing from Elijah and that annointing remained long after Elisha died.
When we enter and leave the manifest presence, that liquid attribute of GODs spirit that has been absorbed within us goes with us.
tangient - While the robber was dead where was his soul.? Had to be somewhere. Either Abraham’s bosom in the heart of the earth or hell. What did he have to say after being brought back from either place?
Going off topic for just a while to compare the attributes of GOD and the adversary.
GOD is omnipresent - Adversary can only be in one place at a time.
GOD is omnipotent - all powerful. Adversary has (honestly) a lot of power but is not all powerful.
GOD exists in a realm where time simply does not exist. This is hard to grasp I know so please just accept that it is so.
Adversary IS subject to time. Search for scripture 'he knows that he has but a short time"
GOD is all knowing. Adveresary may know a lot but is not all knowing.
When adversary was cast out of heaven he took 1/3 of the other angels with him. This is good news as it means he is already outnumbered 2 to 1.
There probably more I could add but this is all for now.
GOD is omnipresent - Adversary can only be in one place at a time.
GOD is omnipotent - all powerful. Adversary has (honestly) a lot of power but is not all powerful.
GOD exists in a realm where time simply does not exist. This is hard to grasp I know so please just accept that it is so.
Adversary IS subject to time. Search for scripture 'he knows that he has but a short time"
GOD is all knowing. Adveresary may know a lot but is not all knowing.
When adversary was cast out of heaven he took 1/3 of the other angels with him. This is good news as it means he is already outnumbered 2 to 1.
There probably more I could add but this is all for now.
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One of the most striking testimonies that came of from the Asbury outpouring came from a young woman. She entered the worship service while it was ongoing and joined in. After a while she excused herself and checked her watch. She said what seemed like 20 minutes had actually been 3 hours.
We know the GOD exists/lives in a realm where time simply does not exist - GOD is timeless. It seems that if HE comes in power - the manifest presence of GOD - human perception of time is altered. Perhaps time itself is altered.
We know the GOD exists/lives in a realm where time simply does not exist - GOD is timeless. It seems that if HE comes in power - the manifest presence of GOD - human perception of time is altered. Perhaps time itself is altered.
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Just an observation of difference between the praise offered by women versus men. A womans soul is different from a mans. Women are more nuturing, gentle, etc because their soul is made different. Therefore their praise when heard by other humans it is more soothing and edifying that that of just men.
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Acts 14 19-20 ( this is my intrepetation - let the reader discern)
In this verse we see that some of the people that stoned Paul "drew" (dragged) him outside the city.
Stoning was a form of excutation so the injuries Paul sustained appeared to the people enough to have killed him. I suspect some sort of head injury because of the accuracy of the people throwing the stones. Probably some other injuries as well.
Even if Paul was not dead, he either had a vision of the third heaven or actually went there. This is still a mystery. Bottom line is that he saw the third heaven where the Father and Son reside and saw and heard things that happen there.
2Corinthians 12 1-7
Paul gives an account of where he went and what he saw after the stoning and before he stood up after the deciples prayed for him. It is written in such a way that he makes no claim to be anything special. Paul did not want the corinthian people to hold him in higher regard because of the visions and revelatons he had been given.
Hebrews 12 18-24
Verses 18 to 21 talk about when GOD appeared to the Israelites on/from Mt. Sinia that the people were afraid and declined to hear from GOD individually but asked that GOD speak to Moses and let Moses speak to the people. They were probably shaking in their boot so to speak.
Verse 18 starts wil "For ye are not come" and goes on to describe the thing that scared the people away.
Verse 22 starts with "But ye are come". Then first lists 3 places we are come to - hopefully without fear.
Then there are 6 different living entities.
The last item listed is Jesus' blood recorded as "the blood of the sprinkling".
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Personally I think that Paul wrote Hebrews, else how could the writer write such a detailed description of what is in heaven had they not been there. Also, having such knowledge would have increased Pauls conviction or strength during his earthly mission because he had seen where we are going. Paul was not allowed to take credit for writing Hebrews because he was restrained by the Holy Spirit not to do so. This was to kep him from being exalted above measure.
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8-5-2024
I'm stopping here for now. Opposition to me writing is pretty strong. Also. just who wrote Hebrews is a secondary point to this blog. The main point is in the 6 living entities and what they are doing. That'll be coming soon I hope.
In this verse we see that some of the people that stoned Paul "drew" (dragged) him outside the city.
Stoning was a form of excutation so the injuries Paul sustained appeared to the people enough to have killed him. I suspect some sort of head injury because of the accuracy of the people throwing the stones. Probably some other injuries as well.
Even if Paul was not dead, he either had a vision of the third heaven or actually went there. This is still a mystery. Bottom line is that he saw the third heaven where the Father and Son reside and saw and heard things that happen there.
2Corinthians 12 1-7
Paul gives an account of where he went and what he saw after the stoning and before he stood up after the deciples prayed for him. It is written in such a way that he makes no claim to be anything special. Paul did not want the corinthian people to hold him in higher regard because of the visions and revelatons he had been given.
Hebrews 12 18-24
Verses 18 to 21 talk about when GOD appeared to the Israelites on/from Mt. Sinia that the people were afraid and declined to hear from GOD individually but asked that GOD speak to Moses and let Moses speak to the people. They were probably shaking in their boot so to speak.
Verse 18 starts wil "For ye are not come" and goes on to describe the thing that scared the people away.
Verse 22 starts with "But ye are come". Then first lists 3 places we are come to - hopefully without fear.
Then there are 6 different living entities.
The last item listed is Jesus' blood recorded as "the blood of the sprinkling".
.............................................
Personally I think that Paul wrote Hebrews, else how could the writer write such a detailed description of what is in heaven had they not been there. Also, having such knowledge would have increased Pauls conviction or strength during his earthly mission because he had seen where we are going. Paul was not allowed to take credit for writing Hebrews because he was restrained by the Holy Spirit not to do so. This was to kep him from being exalted above measure.
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8-5-2024
I'm stopping here for now. Opposition to me writing is pretty strong. Also. just who wrote Hebrews is a secondary point to this blog. The main point is in the 6 living entities and what they are doing. That'll be coming soon I hope.
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My purpose in posting why I think Paul wrote Hebrews.
We are called to be witnesses. Which means that we speak of things we have actually seen more than what we have been taught. Both are important but speaking of what we actually have seen is more important. Paul actually saw the places and living beings listed in Heb 12 22- 24 therefore what he wrote carries more strength. IMHO Paul was not allowed by the Holy Spirit to say "I went to the third heaven" so that he could give a first hand account of what happens there when it came time to write Hebrews. It important to note the first 3 words of verse22. It is present tense. you ARE come....You/we are already there in spirit.
This writer want to focus especially on verse 23 "the spirits of just men made perfect." There IS a place in worship where our worship blends with "the spirits of just men made perfect." This results in a greater flow of the HOLY SPIRIT from the Father to and through us back to the Father.
While they worship by sight in that they can see the Father, we worship by faith and react by faith here on earth with physical expressions such as clapping hands, dancing, blowing horns, anything that the Holy Spirit leads us to do IF HE is in control of the worship service. This level is dependant on how much control the pastor and / or worship leader is willing to give up.
hopefully more to come
We are called to be witnesses. Which means that we speak of things we have actually seen more than what we have been taught. Both are important but speaking of what we actually have seen is more important. Paul actually saw the places and living beings listed in Heb 12 22- 24 therefore what he wrote carries more strength. IMHO Paul was not allowed by the Holy Spirit to say "I went to the third heaven" so that he could give a first hand account of what happens there when it came time to write Hebrews. It important to note the first 3 words of verse22. It is present tense. you ARE come....You/we are already there in spirit.
This writer want to focus especially on verse 23 "the spirits of just men made perfect." There IS a place in worship where our worship blends with "the spirits of just men made perfect." This results in a greater flow of the HOLY SPIRIT from the Father to and through us back to the Father.
While they worship by sight in that they can see the Father, we worship by faith and react by faith here on earth with physical expressions such as clapping hands, dancing, blowing horns, anything that the Holy Spirit leads us to do IF HE is in control of the worship service. This level is dependant on how much control the pastor and / or worship leader is willing to give up.
hopefully more to come
I need to go ahead and wrap this up. I guess the bottom line is that the level of worship we see in the majority of churches ypday does not reach the level we had during the outpouring of the late 60s to the mid 80s or so. I hope there are exceptions that I have not yet found.
To live and walk at this level is possible and it's what the Father would like to have. 'He seeks those that will worship Him in spirit and in truth'. If the reader wants to go to this level, be aware that it may be costly. There are likely things/activities that are of the world but not sin that may need to go. Search G.D. Watson message "Other may, you may not. Others can, you cannot". accurately describes most of the requirements. Google search chould lead you to it.Concerning 'worship in truth', if you do not believe what you say in worship or even praise, all you're doing is giving lip service which is not truth.
A study of Moses tabernacle would be a great help. It is a physical example (a shadow) of how to approach the Father. The first piece of furniture in that tabernacle was the alter where the sacrifice was given. Jesus took care of that once and for all so just confess your sin and proceed to the second piece of furniture the laver. Read the word to cleanse your mind and increase you faith and knowledge and help bring you into sync and harmony with what's going on in heaven. Then entry to the Holy Place is allowed. In there is the gold lampstand showing the Jesus is the light of the world, the alter of insence showing the prayers of God's people, the table of shewbread showing Jesus the bread of life. The manifest presence of God is greater in the holy place then in the outer court. The last room is the Holy of Holies that contains the Ark of the covenant. the stone tablets of the 10 commandments and the Father himself. This is the place of true spiritual worship where God is worship for who and what He is. Not much prayer of petition here.
Hebrews 12 details what is currently in heaven and some of the things going on. Especially "to the spirits of just men made perfect" where our worship blends with this that have passed on to heaven.
You probably will not find a church where this is still practiced so please, please ask the Holy Spirit to lead you in this. The individual effort is well worth it.
..........
I realize that my compositional abilities are lacking so please forgive my rather sloppy presentation. Feel free to start a conversation if something is unclear or you think I may be of assistance,
To live and walk at this level is possible and it's what the Father would like to have. 'He seeks those that will worship Him in spirit and in truth'. If the reader wants to go to this level, be aware that it may be costly. There are likely things/activities that are of the world but not sin that may need to go. Search G.D. Watson message "Other may, you may not. Others can, you cannot". accurately describes most of the requirements. Google search chould lead you to it.Concerning 'worship in truth', if you do not believe what you say in worship or even praise, all you're doing is giving lip service which is not truth.
A study of Moses tabernacle would be a great help. It is a physical example (a shadow) of how to approach the Father. The first piece of furniture in that tabernacle was the alter where the sacrifice was given. Jesus took care of that once and for all so just confess your sin and proceed to the second piece of furniture the laver. Read the word to cleanse your mind and increase you faith and knowledge and help bring you into sync and harmony with what's going on in heaven. Then entry to the Holy Place is allowed. In there is the gold lampstand showing the Jesus is the light of the world, the alter of insence showing the prayers of God's people, the table of shewbread showing Jesus the bread of life. The manifest presence of God is greater in the holy place then in the outer court. The last room is the Holy of Holies that contains the Ark of the covenant. the stone tablets of the 10 commandments and the Father himself. This is the place of true spiritual worship where God is worship for who and what He is. Not much prayer of petition here.
Hebrews 12 details what is currently in heaven and some of the things going on. Especially "to the spirits of just men made perfect" where our worship blends with this that have passed on to heaven.
You probably will not find a church where this is still practiced so please, please ask the Holy Spirit to lead you in this. The individual effort is well worth it.
..........
I realize that my compositional abilities are lacking so please forgive my rather sloppy presentation. Feel free to start a conversation if something is unclear or you think I may be of assistance,
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