Post Trib Rapture?

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GaryA

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You had better check your facts bro. Paul's first missionary journey was something like 48AD.
Peter's preaching to gentiles (Cornelius Acts 10) is a much better fit for you.....37ish AD.
The mark in time I am referring to is Paul’s road-to-Damascus conversion experience - which marks the beginning of his 'ministry' - his 'missionary' journeys happen later...

And, it is not a down-to-the-day-and-hour kind of thing anyway - the 'frame' of time is set by the prophecy. Nothing extraordinary necessarily had to happen on the-very-last-day-of-the-very-last-week. The 'frame' of time - set by the prophecy - is '490 years'. The end of that 490 year period marks the end of the 'Times of the Jews' and the start of the 'Times of the Gentiles'. This is the important historical/timeline thing to remember and understand within the context of the prophecy.
 

GaryA

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If one walks by sight of course that doctrine is true.
If you have to resort to things like this because you cannot stick to the real issues - and give real answers to the issues - well... :( :rolleyes: (n) :cautious: SMH
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Saul-to-Paul said:
I assure you the abomination of desolation is not the Romans of 70ad.
No pre-tribber believes that.
Agreed. (y)

I [also a pre-tribber] sure don't, either.


The "pre-trib" viewpoint does NOT teach that the 70ad events were when the "AOD" (Jesus spoke of) took place.
 

cv5

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The mark in time I am referring to is Paul’s road-to-Damascus conversion experience - which marks the beginning of his 'ministry' - his 'missionary' journeys happen later...

And, it is not a down-to-the-day-and-hour kind of thing anyway - the 'frame' of time is set by the prophecy. Nothing extraordinary necessarily had to happen on the-very-last-day-of-the-very-last-week. The 'frame' of time - set by the prophecy - is '490 years'. The end of that 490 year period marks the end of the 'Times of the Jews' and the start of the 'Times of the Gentiles'. This is the important historical/timeline thing to remember and understand within the context of the prophecy.
Disagree. Gods prophecies always work out to the very day. Precisely. Infallibly.

But the bigger problem is that your entire theory is patently absurd and unbiblical. It quite literally beggars the imagination that anyone could possibly conjure something like that up out of thin air. It is literally one of the most crazy things I have ever heard in my entire life.

BTW......the Gospel FIRST went to the Gentiles via Peter (Acts 10). If it was Paul that preached it first the Bible would say so. Initially Paul was preaching to Jews, and then basically on the run for 10+ years. It is very doubtful he was preaching to Gentiles during that time.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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If you have to resort to things like this because you cannot stick to the real issues - and give real answers to the issues - well...:(:rolleyes:(n):cautious: SMH
Perhaps he is one who thinks that Jesus never talked about tangible things like a promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom age (that people will literally exist in), but that everything He spoke, instead of being prophecies [and speaking as a "Prophet"] about tangible things, instead were [supposedly] all only "object lessons" regarding "spiritual [as in, non-tangible as they define it]" things... His/the poster's words there in that post you quoted was more along those lines... (as I see it).
 

Saul-to-Paul

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If you have to resort to things like this because you cannot stick to the real issues - and give real answers to the issues - well... :( :rolleyes: (n) :cautious: SMH
Not resorting to anything except what the Bible says.
Do you not see you took from a Spiritual book and compared it with a worldly view?

1 Corinthians 2:13
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

You took from Matthew 24 now find 70ad with Bible. What verse(s) in the Bible claims the stones in Matthew 24 are related to 70ad.
 

GaryA

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If memory serves, GaryA believes that when Jesus said, "when ye shall SEE the abomination [singular] of desolation [singular] by Daniel the prophet," that He meant "[see something] LIKE" what Daniel referred to... He in no way believes that Daniel 12:11's (with its specific "day-amounts") "the abomination [singular] of desolation [singular] SET UP [H5414]" refers to anything FUTURE TO JESUS' words in Matt24... but that Jesus was actually saying, "when you see something LIKE that [the AOD in HISTORY/PAST]"
Something like that - yes...

The real actual bona fide Abomination of Desolation occurred in 176 B.C. - the Matthew and Mark accounts of the Olivet Discourse are making a reference to a past event and not predicting a future one. The Jews knew exactly what it meant. Thus, the reason for the parenthetical phrases in those passages.
 

GaryA

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Not resorting to anything except what the Bible says.
Do you not see you took from a Spiritual book and compared it with a worldly view?

1 Corinthians 2:13
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

You took from Matthew 24 now find 70ad with Bible. What verse(s) in the Bible claims the stones in Matthew 24 are related to 70ad.
Sometimes 'history' backs up what the Bible says - and we are talking about the 'physical' here and not the 'spiritual'.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Something like that - yes...

The real actual bona fide Abomination of Desolation occurred in 176 B.C. - the Matthew and Mark accounts of the Olivet Discourse are making a reference to a past event and not predicting a future one. The Jews knew exactly what it meant. Thus, the reason for the parenthetical phrases in those passages.
And did Daniel "STAND IN THY LOT" (which is "on the earth," by the way) at the END OF THE DAYS surrounding the 176bc events??

The answer is, no... he did not.


[Daniel 12:13,6-7,1]







The "AOD" of Antiochus Epiphanes' era is talked about in Dan11:31 (not 12:11, which is yet "future"--and parallel to the time-frame spoken of also in Dan7:25 [and elsewhere])
 

TheDivineWatermark

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I suggest you look up the Greek word translated elect in Matthew 24:31.
It does not refer to Israel but to the saints, those saved by their trust in Jesus.
Consider the word "elect" used in Romans 11:1-11 (namely, v.7):

[The Remnant of Israel]

1I ask, then did God reject His people? Never may it be! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject His people, whom He foreknew [that is, in OT times]. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel: 3“Lord, they have killed Your prophets, they have torn down Your altars, and I alone have been left, and they are seeking my life”a?

4But what was the divine answer spoken to him? “I have left to Myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”b

5So then also, in the present time, there has been a remnant according to the election of grace. 6And if by grace, it is no longer from works; otherwise grace no longer would be grace.c

7What then? What Israel is seeking, this it has not obtained, but the elect obtained it. And the rest [/remaining ones / remainder (a Grk related to v.5's "remnant" word)] were hardened, [ https://biblehub.com/text/romans/11-7.htm ] 8as it has been written:

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,

eyes not to see,

and ears not to hear,

unto this very day.”d

9And David says:

“Let their table be for a snare and for a trap,

and for a stumbling block and for a retribution to them.

10Let their eyes be darkened not to see,

and their backs bent over forever.”e

[The Ingrafting of the Gentiles]

11I ask then, did they stumble that they might fall? Never may it be! But in their trespass is salvation to the Gentiles, so as to provoke them to jealousy.





Do you see v.7's ^ use of the related word "ELECT" (a noun, "G1589 - ekloge... rather than the adjective "G1588 - eklektous" used in Matt24:31 - https://biblehub.com/text/matthew/24-31.htm ) to be referring to anyone other than "those of Israel WHO BELIEVED" (since the text goes on to say "but the REST [/ REMAINING ONES / REMAINDER] were hardened..."--the "REST" of JUST WHO is this referring to specifically here?)

Can you see how in THIS context, "elect" refers specifically to "the elect OF ISRAEL" (those of Israel WHO BELIEVED)? whereas the "rest" (the ones of Israel who did NOT believe) were "hardened [G4456 - verb]"



[V.25 "blindness [/a hardening - G4457 - noun] IN PART has happened TO ISRAEL *UNTIL*..." ; where this "IN PART" is equivalent to "the REST [/ remaining ones / remainder]" (of Israel) in v.7 who were "hardened [G4456-verb]"]
 

TheDivineWatermark

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^ IOW, the "elect" of THIS context is specifically "the elect [OF ISRAEL]" (those OF ISRAEL who BELIEVED)... It is not referring to "ALL SAVED PERSONS" just because it uses the word "elect" v.7

(nor does it refer to "the elect ANGELS" spoken of in the Timothy context. ;) )
 
R

RichMan

Guest
I have.

The word "elect" is also used in the phrase "the elect angels"... but no one insists that Matt24:31 is speaking of them.
Why don't we? Because we can tell by both the surrounding contexts, as well as what the OT prophecies had already SAID about this "GREAT" trumpet circumstances and "who" it involves... though many do disregard what the OT had said regarding it.







[Acts 3:21 - "whom indeed it behooves heaven to receive until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from the age." -- WHAT THINGS did the OT prophets "speak" of?? Because that was Jesus' Subject in His Olivet Discourse... [except for the 12 verses in Lk12 about the 70ad events, and a few other verses like Matt24:1-2 and its parallels Mk13:1-2 and Lk21:5-6]... His Subject in His Olivet Discourse was NOWHERE about "rapture / snatch / caught up [G726] [IN THE AIR]" nor even alluding to it; Rather, it's all about His Second Coming TO THE EARTH, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom... just as Matt24:42-51's PARALLEL in Lk12:36-37,38,40 says, "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the MEAL [G347; see this word also in Mt8:11 and parallel, re: the MK age]"]








Again, it is important for us to do as Scripture tells us to do, to be "correctly apportioning the word of truth" and "distinguishing the things which differ"... and not just lumping everything into one big mish-mash of mush
I disagree,
You will not accept that the elect spoken of here are the saints because it does not agree with your pre-trip rapture of the church belief.
I stand by my statement that you interpret Scripture to fit your belief and not accept what is clearly stated.

You and others will never change your mind I will leave it there.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

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Dec 20, 2017
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I used to believe the same. But I lack of verses.
The Bible consistently advises believers to endure. Especially near the end of the age.


Matt 24
11 Many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 Because lawlessness will multiply, the love of many will grow cold.
13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Mark 13
13 You will be hated by everyone because of my name, but the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Daniel 7
21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

Rev 1
9 I, John, your brother and partner in the affliction, kingdom, and endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

Rev 12
11 They conquered him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
for they did not love their lives
to the point of death.

Rev 13
9 If anyone has ears , let him hear.

10 “If anyone is to go into captivity,
into captivity they will go.
If anyone is to be killed with the sword,
with the sword they will be killed.”

This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.


Rev 14
12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.


Any notion of a pretrib rapture is destroyed by genuine Biblical instruction. Fanatical pretibulational teachers replace Bbilical instruction with dogma. They discard many verses by redefining biblical terms and changing the identity of the church.
 
N

notonmywatch

Guest
Well, I'm glad to see that everybody here heeded the OP's wishes by only addressing what Paul said in 1 Thessalonians chapter 4.

;)
 

TheDivineWatermark

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^ Well, it has to "MAKE SENSE" [meaning, the OP Question] in relation to many other passages as well... for example, the matter I placed in my Post #100 (bottom of pg 5), which I've not seen anyone respond to, btw... where I'd asked:


In the other viewpoints, ALL saints are "glorified" at the time of His Second Coming to the earth (Rev19), and all the unsaved / unbelievers / lost / wicked / goats / tares (etc) are destroyed / killed. So how did the earth become so populated as to say of them "the number of whom is as the sand of the sea" regarding ppl / mortals who could conceivably be "deceived" [as is Satan's AIM / OBJECTIVE at that point in time]?? Where did these MORTALS COME FROM (in your perspective / the post-trib perspective and others like it) at that point in the chronology??
-- Post #100 - https://christianchat.com/threads/post-trib-rapture.209486/post-5010611 (to see the rest of that Post, for it to make sense in the context of what I wrote there in its entirety)



Anyone? ...?
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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I disagree,
You will not accept that the elect spoken of here are the saints because it does not agree with your pre-trip rapture of the church belief.
Where did I ever state that these "elect" (in Matt24:31) are NOT "saints"?? (if that's what you're suggesting I said).



I already stated in Post #100 (which I quote in part in my previous post just now) that ONLY "SAINTS / SAVED PERSONS / BELIEVERS" will ENTER the MK age (commencing upon His RETURN to the earth Rev19... which is the Subject of Matt24:29-31/Isa27:12-13,9 ! [verse 9 connecting with what Rom11:26-27 tells us, as well as the "time-prophecy" of Dan9:24, re: Israel's "future"!])


Do you have an answer to my Post #100? - https://christianchat.com/threads/post-trib-rapture.209486/post-5010611
 

NilsForChrist

Active member
Jan 31, 2023
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The Bible consistently advises believers to endure. Especially near the end of the age.


Matt 24
11 Many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 Because lawlessness will multiply, the love of many will grow cold.
13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Mark 13
13 You will be hated by everyone because of my name, but the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Daniel 7
21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

Rev 1
9 I, John, your brother and partner in the affliction, kingdom, and endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

Rev 12
11 They conquered him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
for they did not love their lives
to the point of death.

Rev 13
9 If anyone has ears , let him hear.

10 “If anyone is to go into captivity,
into captivity they will go.
If anyone is to be killed with the sword,
with the sword they will be killed.”

This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.


Rev 14
12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.


Any notion of a pretrib rapture is destroyed by genuine Biblical instruction. Fanatical pretibulational teachers replace Bbilical instruction with dogma. They discard many verses by redefining biblical terms and changing the identity of the church.
AMEN!!!