If you are referring to the rich man & Lazarus portion, Luke 16 proves his point. Soul sleep isn't a biblical teaching.
Post-death/pre-resurrection
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If you are referring to the rich man & Lazarus portion, Luke 16 proves his point. Soul sleep isn't a biblical teaching.
Proudly, yes. I believe God has preserved his words in English through the KJV. Do you have a bible you can trust every word? Or do you rely on your own education?
According to Wordnik, a parable is
noun
- A simple story illustrating a moral or religious lesson.
- A comparison; similitude.
- Specifically An allegorical relation or representation from which a moral is drawn for instruction; an apologue.
It is my understanding that Parables use 'comparables' , in this case Lazarus is the favored despite his fortune in the world, and the rich man is lost, in spite of the life he lived as 'favored' in the world.
The rich man had influence in the world, but has none, after death, to alter the outcome of his fate, no imploring, pleading, and it shows the irony of his begging. This reflects scripture that says, paraphrasing, 'tho you are rich, don't you know you are poor?'
I take your point about the Lazarus account, but how does that square with other portions of Scripture, eg - Ecclesiastes 9:5, which says "The living are conscious that they will die, but the dead are conscious of nothing at all."? or the "other Lazarus" account where Jesus resurrects him. Where had he been for the last few days. There's no suggestion that he'd been brought back from Heaven or Hell.
Using another parable for example, such as the wheat and tares one, no one actually sowed any wheat, or tares. The wheat and tares are 'comparable' to believers and unbelievers to teach about the reality of the present conditions in anticipation of 'the harvest.' And the parable of the talents, no one actually gave three people 5, 2, and 1 talent and then went away. This is a lesson in investing in the Word, the dividends of the Gospel. So the rich man, in the parable, didn't actually go to hell and wish he could return and tell his brothers about it, it is a lesson about it being too late, after you die, to do, say, or offer any excuse about how you lived.
Lazarus died in 'abraham's bosom,' that is, with the heart of faith.
The rich man died lost forever.
Lazarus died in 'abraham's bosom,' that is, with the heart of faith.
The rich man died lost forever.
I CERTAINLY don't trust my "education".
As for trusting every word in any given Bible, emphatically NO. The KJV is what I currently use, but even that I try to treat with caution, not because of fear of error, primarily, but wariness I'll misinterpret something. I certainly wouldn't consult any other Bible I'm aware of to settle doctrine.
You're probably aware of the fact that it's in dispute as to whether the KJV is divinely inspired and/ or fallible. I don't know much about the translating process of Bibles. Many people, eg, James White, sees the KJV as a good, but not infallible, translation.
He seems very knowledgeable about the original textual references, the details of which I can't do justice. In the off chance you'd be interested in finding videos on his take on this subject, I think he'd be easy to find under "Dr. James White - Bible translations".
BTW - I don't know if your familiar with Pastor Steven Anderson. I suspect you are!
If you like to comment on any of these, or other issue(s), I'd be happy to hear from you, but don't feel pressured to respond.
Do you believe, in light of how you've interpreted the Lazarus account, that this does not indicate, at least in itself, that consciousness exists in the post-death/ pre-second coming state?
Another point:- I don't know if the situation is clouded by the fact that Jesus seems to be referencing a pre-Christian state, but - In the conversation between the rich man and God/ Abraham, when an explanation is given as to why the rich man was where he was and suffering, it seems to be, effectively "You were rich and callous to the poor and needy", rather than "you are a sinner and failed to avail yourself of God's plan of salvation".
That seems to me strange in light of Christ's consistent message.
The post about other verses which seem to reference the fact that the dead are at least at SOME point dead was meant as a reply to your comment on this matter.
I'm not au fait with technology and I don't know how it ended where it did.
I'm uncertain on this matter, but it seems the preponderence of biblical evidence points to the idea that the post-death/ pre-second coming people are unconscious, at least mostly.
One issue I've relatively recently come across is the idea that Hades had 2 compartments - one for the "just" - a sort of paradise and one for the "unjust", apparently a place of punishment.
I don't follow Anderson. Our beliefs do not match. Question, when you come across a suspected error in your study, how do you determine what is the correct word?
LOL, I've listened to James White bash the KJV for years with his so called contradictions. All can be and have been refuted.
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If consciousness exists then wouldn't it follow that it is, theoretically at least, possible to persuade God to reconsider one's fate as suggested in the doctrine of purgatory?
I believe the lesson is central to consideration of others' as much as oneself, yes, to love God and others as much as yourself. Since the rich man thought to warn (who he considered) his 'brothers' afterwards, he is told that all the instructions about this regard have been given to all by Moses and the prophets. And this is consistent to Christ's message, as Jesus says, 'what you have done to the least of these you have done to Me.'
If consciousness exists then wouldn't it follow that it is, theoretically at least, possible to persuade God to reconsider one's fate as suggested in the doctrine of purgatory?
I believe the lesson is central to consideration of others' as much as oneself, yes, to love God and others as much as yourself. Since the rich man thought to warn (who he considered) his 'brothers' afterwards, he is told that all the instructions about this regard have been given to all by Moses and the prophets. And this is consistent to Christ's message, as Jesus says, 'what you have done to the least of these you have done to Me.'
You obviously don't get that from
1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1 Corinthians 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
because that says SOWN followed by RAISED. ISN'T that DEATH FOLLOWED BY MADE ALIVE?
I realize that 'THE DEAD' aren't raised up until Christ returns, but 'the NEVER DIE' are raised up when their body is sown.
Isn't that also what it says here?
AGAIN, taking into consideration THE DEAD won't be rising until Christ returns, so the TIME between their being sown and raised is DIFFERENT than
the time between the NEVER DIE being sown and raised (not to mention the NEVER DIE have ALREADY been 'sown and raised' at baptism and become new creatures)
1 Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and WITH WHAT BODY DO THEY COME? with what body do they come?
Just because the UNSAVED have to wait to be raised the DEAD, they are still raised up in bodies. Of course everyone will see them because JESUS will have brought with HIM THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN so the 'unseen' will have become the 'seen' realm.
BUT those who have been saved/NEVER DIE still die as to the flesh being sown, as 'in Adam all die' but and
EVEN YOU SAY THEY ARE RAISED UP TO HEAVEN, you just don't want them to go with BODIES because of your PRE TRIB RAPTURE need. (WHICH INCIDENTALLY HAS THE 'UNSAVED' BEING TAKEN TO HEAVEN
but that's another subject all together)BUT WHAT IS WRITTEN ABOUT THE ORDER OF EVENTS? Since we already AGREE the spirit/soul goes to heaven the PROBLEM is the BODY.
1 Corinthians 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
FOR our spiritual body to 'be quickened'/ to be raised up, the flesh has to die
1 Corinthians 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain
When our flesh dies IT IS NOT WHAT IS RAISED UP but only puts forth 'the seed' of the Spiritual body. (DNA with our works that do follow us???) so we are either a WHEAT seed or if we don't measure up to that , some other kind. (We can be sure the DEAD will be some other 'grain' altogether, until the GWTJ anyway)
1 Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
DID YOU NOTICE there is NO DELAY. No separation of body and soul. There is a one to the other just one ASCENDS and the other DESCENDS. Both get their bodies though. Then when the KINGDOM OF HEAVEN comes those who ascended descend and those who descended ascend and those who were alive and endured to the end ARE CHANGED and the Lords Day has begun.
People have tried to USE this next verse to CHANGE the timing of everything
but they all seem to leave out a very IMPORTANT timing issue
WHICH POINTS TO THE MOMENT OF CHRISTS RETURN and that is
1Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
THEY don't want to ACCEPT this MYSTERY is about those who are ALIVE AND REMAINING WHEN CHRIST RETURNS, they try and tell me it is about ALL being changed at the same time but CLEARY a SPECIFIC period of time is set in place by the NOT ALL SLEEP.
WHAT happens to those who are ALIVE and REMAINING having not gone to 'sleep'??
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
THE DEAD - Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
WHO ISN'T DEAD? Those who never die. Who HAVE already been at the JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST and so were PRIESTS for the last 1000 years so don't even STAND with the dead at the GWTJ?
1 Corinthians 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Corinthians 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
WHEN THE ALIVE AND REMAINING are changed, SATAN is destroyed by the BRIGHTNESS of His coming, the sun has gone dark (because of the BRIGHTNESS of His coming, the reason the moon doesn't give off light WE ARE IN THE presence of the heavenly realm moments before UNSEEN but now seen by all)
1 Corinthians 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
No one wants to take into account the changing of the realms and the effects is has on WHAT IS WRITTEN. Just like no one likes to take on the changing of times when Christ died (THAT time the sun went dark but not the same way) and the NEW COVENANT was brought in, but you do.
(Just a side note when Satan and his angels are cast from heaven at the 6th trump, the sun turns to SACKCLOTH and the moon to blood and the last half of the week begins)
Why do the 'souls' under the altar receive robes? IS IT TO TELL US THEY HAVE BODIES?
Why are we 'like the angels in heaven'? Is it because we have bodies?
When John fell at the feet of the FELLOWSERVANT and BRETHREN of the prophets was it because he had a body in heaven?
When the ARMIES are on horses and all dressed in white is it because they have BODIES?
THE ONLY ONES RESURRECTED FROM THE EARTH WHEN CHRIST RETURNS ARE THOSE WHO HAVE DIED AND DESCENDED INTO THE EARTH.
SINCE THE BODY WE 'SOW' ISN'T THE BODY THAT IS RAISED, THEN WHY HAVE SOULS BE WITHOUT BODIES
ESPECIALLY WHEN THE BODY WE SOW GIVES LIFE TO THE SEED AND GOD GIVES THE SEED A BODY.
Please EXPLAIN HOW YOU READ THOSE VERSES. Please put each explanation under the verse you are explaining so I can easily follow your train of thought and either SEE its truth or not. Looking forward to it.
How EXACTLY do I go about making null and void these verses so I can step off the narrow path that leads to life to join you?
Psalm 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Psalm 110:2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
ONLY WAY FOR CHRIST TO HAVE ENEMIES AT HIS FEET IS FOR THEM TO HAVE BEEN KICKED OUT OF HEAVEN first.
OR IS THERE SOME WAY TO MAKE IT OK, like if there is a really good reason. Or is it written in a manner so SIMPLE and easy to understand, IT JUST CAN'T BE TRUTH?
Mark 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
Mark 13:21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
are you or are you not saying CHRIST COMES BEFORE SATAN?
Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
THIS happens when HE leaves the right hand of God, when the 7th trump sounds and the kingdoms of this world become HIS, when His enemies have been made his footstool
I can't say I have a consistent method of determining which is likely correct. I guess I'd look at the Greek, of which I'm no expert, maybe consult what people who seem to be knowledgeable on the subject say. Compare scripture with Scripture.
Agree with the scripture with scripture, but in order to do this one must have the scriptures.