Poll Regarding Paul & Romans 7

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Was Paul Referencing His Current Or Former Spiritual Status In Romans 7?

  • He Was Admitting He Was Actively Struggling With Sin

    Votes: 18 78.3%

  • He Was Describing His Former Life Before Jesus Found Him On The Damascus Road

    Votes: 7 30.4%
  • Total voters
    23
2ndTimothyGroup said:
Wow. That is a great question!!!

Yes, I do quote from the NLT a lot and for a few reason's. I'd would like to say, however, that my "go-to" translations are the KJV and NLT. If it weren't for the NLT, I wouldn't have been able to grasp the KJV as I do.

Another reason is that I tend to quote from Translations that are easy for the less informed to understand. My ex-wife was pure Japanese. Of course, English was her second language. I think all would agree that it would have been ridiculous to expect her to speak a language that isn't used in America . . . rest her soul. I'm here to feed those who are hungry, not those who think they full. :)

In my database, I use I think 18 translations from the Blue Letter Bible website. More translations, in my opinion, are the first "commentary" we should turn to. When these many translations aren't helping me, the BLB has some ok Commentaries that I'll turn to, but only as little as possible. So, I'd LOVE IT if the BLB would add the Berean SB to their collection. Wheneven they add a new translation, I usually start copying and pasting its Scripture into my database. Love all translations except . . . drum roll please . . .

The Message
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BLB is a good resource. I like Don Stewart, too. That helps LOL. Have you ever used Biblehub? Many years ago
I used to access Biblegateway a lot, but now mostly avoid it. The hub is great, giving many translations on one
page, plus corresponding Scriptures, commentaries, concordance, etc all at once, and even provides not-so-common
translations via a link off the main page. Here (<= link) is an example, using John 3:16.
 
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Magenta said:
BLB is a good resource. I like Don Stewart, too. That helps LOL. Have you ever used Biblehub? Many years ago
I used to access Biblegateway a lot, but now mostly avoid it. The hub is great, giving many translations on one
page, plus corresponding Scriptures, commentaries, concordance, etc all at once, and even provides not-so-common
translations via a link off the main page. Here (<= link) is an example, using John 3:16.
Click to expand...

I can't say that I've ever read any of Stewarts ideas, but I recognize the name. Yep, I've been to BibleHub a few times, but oddly enough, I think these sites are pulling from like a free version of the TSK. I used to have the paperback and it had bajillions of cross-references, but these online versions are, well, dinky. haha - In fact, there are times when I need some cross-references on a super critical passage . . . and they offer nothing. NOTHING!! :D

Alright, I gotta get busy. I can't believe how far behind I am. :oops:
 
2ndTimothyGroup said:
Thanks for your sharing. However, are you sure that the Laws in question aren't the Laws of Moses?
Click to expand...

I believe Paul was speaking of the Law but the Law was for all Israel whether they were believers or not. You don't get a pass on "do not commit murder", for example, just because you are an unbeliever. When we also consider Paul spoke of Gentiles recognising right from wrong (Rom.2:14), I see no problem with understanding it is not the Law as it applies to Israel only, but the Law as it includes both moral and ethical standards that are applicable to all mankind.

I am a Gentile but related to the struggle of Romans 7 as a six year old long before I read about it in the Bible. Thankfully now, I also relate to the solution. :)
 
sawdust said:
When we also consider Paul spoke of Gentiles recognising right from wrong (Rom.2:14), I see no problem with understanding it is not the Law as it applies to Israel only
Click to expand...

That is certainly reasonable. However, Paul is very clear that the Romans, and he even included himself in the group whom he sais had been freed from the Power of sin. If Paul had been freed from the Power and control of evil, so that Paul would no longer say things like:

Romans 7:21 KJV - "I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me."

Can you imagine that? Can you imagine that if your wife or husband came home and said, "Evil is present with me." What would you think? Would you say, "That's great! You sound just like an Apostle!" Or, would you think that perhaps counseling might be in order?
 
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Paul was admitting that his flesh was sinful and sold to sin, That when ever the flesh had it's way he did things that he didn't like (sin).

Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. ...but the evil which I would not, that I do.

He describes a war in himself. The controversy between the spirit and the flesh.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

we All have a sinful nature and Paul was no exception..

The summery .... and solution.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Two sides .... the war between the flesh and the spirit. The battle between the mind or conscence and the lusts of the flesh.
By faith Jesus is the solution... We can overcome through Christ... If the Spirit of God dwells in you. (see below... )

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
 
TMS said:
we All have a sinful nature and Paul was no exception..
Click to expand...

Many apologies, but Paul taught that the Sinful Nature is to be cut out and permanently removed. I have experienced this process and am lucky to say that my Sin Nature has been permanently removed, just as was our Father of Faith, Abraham, and all other Righteous and Holy men and women throughout the Bible. If a person's heart hasn't been Spiritually Circumcised by Christ, they'd be smart if they were scared. This is what the Bible is about, after all . . . the removal of all corruption. There is to be no stone in a person's heart and Jesus is the one to do it. And when a person has been set free from the captivity of the Devil, believe me, they know it just as does any human prisoner when released from a human prison. It is an unbelievable experience.

Colossians 2:11 NLT - "When you came to Christ, you were "circumcised," but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision--the cutting away of your sinful nature."

I recommend that all people memorize Colossians 2:9-15. It is the key to next level understanding of the entire Bible, front to back cover.
 
2ndTimothyGroup said:
That is certainly reasonable. However, Paul is very clear that the Romans, and he even included himself in the group whom he sais had been freed from the Power of sin. If Paul had been freed from the Power and control of evil, so that Paul would no longer say things like:

Romans 7:21 KJV - "I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me."

Can you imagine that? Can you imagine that if your wife or husband came home and said, "Evil is present with me." What would you think? Would you say, "That's great! You sound just like an Apostle!" Or, would you think that perhaps counseling might be in order?
Click to expand...

I don't have to imagine what Paul is talking about, I lived it for the first 30 years of my life and it drove me crazy. The Lord used that struggle to teach me and bring me to His solution (salvation).

What do you think evil is within the context of Romans 7? (Compare James 1:14&15)

Paul is speaking from the perspective of the unsaved who love righteousness but have no capacity do it consistently by virtue of their own will. When such a person tries to do good, eventually, no matter how hard they try, they will always fail. Therefore what is the solution? "Thanks be to God who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord". (Rom.7:25) Why? Because Christ is the power to overcome, He is the Word!

All men are in that position but what I have observed is that not all men are aware of it and it seems to me the difference is whose righteousness one loves more, God's or one's own. That is just my opinion though based on observation.
 
sawdust said:
I don't have to imagine what Paul is talking about, I lived it for the first 30 years of my life and it drove me crazy. The Lord used that struggle to teach me and bring me to His solution (salvation).
Click to expand...

I am pretty sure that I understand what you mean, and if I do . . . AMEN!!! And I never say that. That's what I'm talkin about!
 
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sawdust said:
What do you think evil is within the context of Romans 7? (Compare James 1:14&15)
Click to expand...

Well, it isn't really what I think as much as it is what I copy and paste.
Romans 7:11 NLT - "Sin took advantage of those commands and deceived me; it used the commands to kill me."

Unless sin no longer comes from an evil, Satanic source, it is very safe to say that the Devil took advantage of the commands to deceive Paul. He then equates it to Spiritual death, for he is physically alive. Thus, his reference must be Spiritual. Those who are Spiritually dead do not belong to Christ. Those who are not controlled by the Holy Spirit do not belong to God at all, and this is Paul's teaching. His own teaching reduces himself to an unbeliever, and moreover, his self-description in Chapter 7 would flat-out disqualify him from being an Elder if the things he said were of his current Spiritual Status. And if he can't be an Elder because he doesn't have control over himself, then he certainly shouldn't be an Apostle. Jesus was very clear that hypocrisy is not a Work for believers of Jesus. Therefore, Paul, if he was unable to control himself, then he should have shut his mouth and minded his own business.

Yes, those Scriptures from James are tough nuts to crack. They also don't make any sense within the context of the Bible. Therefore, I wonder if there is some kind of Translation error. Unlikely, but . . . I could write ten pages on this question, but in short, these passages could be in line with the Seed that received the Word gladly, but because of shallow soil, or birds, sun, etc, the Seed died. There is an overabundance of Scripture that shows that Salvation is the complete Work of God, and that His Covenant does not depend upon us, but upon His Promise alone. Therefore, when He promises that He will give Abraham's descendants new hearts, personal spirit, the Holy Spirit, and this so as to cause His Elect to obey . . . if that doesn't happen, it isn't because God failed.

Unfortunately, that's all I have time for. But . . . I like your opinion and mature ability to discuss our amazing Bible. Thank you!
 
@sawdust

Oh man, I forgot to include that not only is there actual evil taking place in Romans 7, but there is also the Mosaic Principle that causes people to do the things they are told not to do. That isn't necessarily evil, but a Spiritual Law similar to gravity, though gravity is obviously not a worldly law. This is ONE of the battles going on within Paul. He was also under the Adamic Curse, which had yet to be cut away. That wouldn't happen until the Damascus Road experience. So yes, this is likely the same power that @Magenta was referring to earlier. :)
 
Edify said:
It is obvious: Paul is writing in present tense so it's how he's currently dealing with sin.
Click to expand...
Or he was using the figure of speech called prosopopaeia, where one speaks as a dead person as if they are alive. Probably he was speaking as his former carnal self, describing its weakness before his ego-death and spirit-led and spirit-filled living began.




prosopopoeia
/ˌprɒsəpəˈpiːə/
noun

  1. 1.
    a figure of speech in which an abstract thing is personified.

  2. 2.
    a figure of speech in which an imagined, absent, or dead person or thing is represented as speaking.
 

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PaulThomson said:
Or he was using the figure of speech called prosopopaeia, where one speaks as a dead person as if they are alive. Probably he was speaking as his former carnal self, describing its weakness before his ego-death and spirit-led and spirit-filled living began.
Click to expand...

We need to have a new Emoji . . . a kings crown. What you have just posted above is EXACTLY what I am seeing and understanding as he wrote that incredible, Bible-changing Chapter. For Paul says it himself at least twice within Romans, that he considered himself DEAD. In other portions of Romans, Paul talks about being made alive in Christ. Therefore, Paul's writing from R7 the perspective of a Spiritually dead person as he was some 20-25 years earlier, when he was LITERALLY out of control and murdering innocent men and women. But Paul was completely Transformed, proven by how he had crossed over from death to Spiritual Life, just as he explains . . . PERFECTLY . . . in Colossians 2:9-15.

MEMORIZE THESE VERSES, CHRISTIANS!

Colossians 2:9-15 NLT - 9 For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body. 10 So you also are complete through your union with Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority. 11 When you came to Christ, you were "circumcised," but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision--the cutting away of your sinful nature. 12 For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead. 13 You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins. 14 He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross. 15 In this way, he disarmed the spiritual rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross."

Is it impossible, IMPOSSIBLE for a person to NOT change if their Sinful Nature has been cut away and permanently removed, just as God Promised He would do for all whom He had chosen.
 
2ndTimothyGroup said:
Many apologies, but Paul taught that the Sinful Nature is to be cut out and permanently removed. I have experienced this process and am lucky to say that my Sin Nature has been permanently removed, just as was our Father of Faith, Abraham, and all other Righteous and Holy men and women throughout the Bible. If a person's heart hasn't been Spiritually Circumcised by Christ, they'd be smart if they were scared. This is what the Bible is about, after all . . . the removal of all corruption. There is to be no stone in a person's heart and Jesus is the one to do it. And when a person has been set free from the captivity of the Devil, believe me, they know it just as does any human prisoner when released from a human prison. It is an unbelievable experience.

Colossians 2:11 NLT - "When you came to Christ, you were "circumcised," but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision--the cutting away of your sinful nature."

I recommend that all people memorize Colossians 2:9-15. It is the key to next level understanding of the entire Bible, front to back cover.
Click to expand...
Yes, we are set free from the sinful nature by the circumcision of Christ, raised from the dead with Him to life with Him. We no longer are "in the flesh" but "in the Spirit" because "the Spirit of God dwells" in us. All this is true.

But this truth comes hand-in-glove with another truth... "If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. " (Ro 8:10 NASB).

Now that your Sinful Nature has been "cut out and permanently removed", where do think your sins come from?
 
NewLifeInChrist said:
Now that your Sinful Nature has been "cut out and permanently removed", where do think your sins come from?
Click to expand...

Well, one thing we know is this: The source of evil certainly isn't Satan, for the defeat of Satan is the Purpose of Christ in his First Advent.

Once the Power of Satan has been pulled from the new believer, they will undergo the process of Sanctification. If the Devil is no longer the motivating factor to produce evil fruit, the only other option is that a person is being sanctified of their knowledge of evil, and their behaviors begin to over time, sometimes quickly (like Saul to Paul), and then others take more time, particularly considering their circumcstances. Paul grew quickly because he had genuine Christians surrounding him. But if a person is Powerfully Saved by the Spirit, yet they do not have influences in their life who can explain what God has done and is doing in their life, their Transformation can take significantly more time.

Our minds. How does a man just stop appreciating his old sexual lifestyle? He can't. The only way to get past these thoughts and feelings is by and through the Power of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
 
I believe he was mostly talking about his former life before getting saved. He was illustrating the futility of trying to obey a spiritual law through the carnal flesh. ("For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin." v.14) But after we're saved and receive the Holy Spirit we still sometimes try to please God in the flesh; so Romans 7 can still apply. With the help of the Holy Spirit though we stand a much better chance of pleasing God spiritually. We've been released from the letter of the law and are now able to walk in the spirit of the law (Romans 7:6).
 
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