Poll: Are governments targeting Christians with Covid 19 restrictions?

[UnitedWithChrist]

Some churches are complaining because the government has restricted activities in light of Covid 19.

Apparently, they think the governments have specifically targeted Christians by restricting church activities temporarily in order to lessen the burden on the medical system by flattening the outbreak curve.

My opinion is that the government has no ill intentions regarding Christianity related to these actions. Some individuals in various governments might have issues with Christianity, but in general, these Christians are overreacting.

I compare it to chest-beating behavior amongst old gorillas. An old gorilla engages in chest-beating in order to intimidate and dominate younger gorillas. My personal opinion is that older Christians engage in this sort of behavior, too.

In this case, I suspect that a lot of the anti-government sentiment expressed by older Christians in regard to Covid 19 is similar to the aggressive chest beating that old gorillas manifest in order to assert their dominance.

I'm an older Christian so I am allowed to say this

At any rate, I don't think the government has any ill intentions related to Covid 19. At some future time, the governments of the world most certainly will express anti-Christian sentiments and persecute believers, but I don't think it is a good idea for Christians to attribute these motives when there is no solid evidence to substantiate the claims.

Additionally, I find it sad that some Christians are willing to throw older and immunodeficient brethren under the bus by being defiant concerning the restrictions that are deemed to be wise in order to minimize the impact of the pandemic. But, the funny thing is that some of those who are protesting the loudest are older Christians, so I don't know what to think about that.

I also notice that some Christians are accusing others of being slackers if they do not attend services due to health concerns at this point in time.

Some have used the excuse that congregating together is a commandment. Apparently they think this commandment is without qualification. I doubt the apostle Paul was able to attend group meetings when he was imprisoned numerous occasions. I was not able to attend services for a long time after a near-fatal accident.

Are the government restrictions excessive? Are some Christians being troublemakers regarding this situation? Is the command to assemble together without qualifications such as the presence of a pandemic or personal health crisis?

 

[notuptome]

The gates of hell will not prevail against the church.

Judgment begins at the house of God. God is going to winnow out the chaff from the wheat.

Governments are not a terror to good works.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[blue_ladybug]

Trump has ordered churches to be re-opened..

 

[acts5_29]

South Korea targeted Christians with covid restrictions.

 

[breno785au]

South Korea targeted Christians with covid restrictions.

Were other religions allowed to gather but not Christians?

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Trump has ordered churches to be re-opened..

Yeah..I imagine that move alone should render the restrictions to be of little concern.

I don't think it's necessarily a bad move. Eventually those who are susceptible will get the virus and either live or die.

But, I certainly appreciate the desire to reduce the fatalities by flattening the curve so that health care resources are not depleted too quickly.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Some churches are complaining because the government has restricted activities in light of Covid 19.

Apparently, they think the governments have specifically targeted Christians by restricting church activities temporarily in order to lessen the burden on the medical system by flattening the outbreak curve.

My opinion is that the government has no ill intentions regarding Christianity related to these actions. Some individuals in various governments might have issues with Christianity, but in general, these Christians are overreacting.

I compare it to chest-beating behavior amongst old gorillas. An old gorilla engages in chest-beating in order to intimidate and dominate younger gorillas. My personal opinion is that older Christians engage in this sort of behavior, too.

In this case, I suspect that a lot of the anti-government sentiment expressed by older Christians in regard to Covid 19 is similar to the aggressive chest beating that old gorillas manifest in order to assert their dominance.

I'm an older Christian so I am allowed to say this

At any rate, I don't think the government has any ill intentions related to Covid 19. At some future time, the governments of the world most certainly will express anti-Christian sentiments and persecute believers, but I don't think it is a good idea for Christians to attribute these motives when there is no solid evidence to substantiate the claims.

Additionally, I find it sad that some Christians are willing to throw older and immunodeficient brethren under the bus by being defiant concerning the restrictions that are deemed to be wise in order to minimize the impact of the pandemic. But, the funny thing is that some of those who are protesting the loudest are older Christians, so I don't know what to think about that.

I also notice that some Christians are accusing others of being slackers if they do not attend services due to health concerns at this point in time.

Some have used the excuse that congregating together is a commandment. Apparently they think this commandment is without qualification. I doubt the apostle Paul was able to attend group meetings when he was imprisoned numerous occasions. I was not able to attend services for a long time after a near-fatal accident.

Are the government restrictions excessive? Are some Christians being troublemakers regarding this situation? Is the command to assemble together without qualifications such as the presence of a pandemic or personal health crisis?

By the way, one other point I would add is the motive behind Christian leadership in regards to opening churches. If they think it is ok to impute bad motives toward the government, perhaps their motives should be examined. Are they more concerned about the challenges to their budget rather than the people themselves?

I am not saying that they are, but since motives are being imputed to others in such a cavalier fashion, are we allowed to examine their motives and impute motives to them that may or may not be true? And, if not, why do they feel justified to do this to elected governmental officials?

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Here's a post by Jeff Durbin (Christian apologist) on this issue:

The argument that the church hasn't been shut down is erroneous. The church is not a building! Agreed. We are the church! Agreed. However, what's missing is an understanding of what ekklesia means. Gathering or assembly is inherent in the definition AND understanding of the practice of the church. To forbid the "gathering" of the People of God for corporate worship, is in fact shutting down one of the primary purposes and meanings of the Church. Make no mistake, allowing gathering and mingling with others at Costco, Wal-Mart, Target, grocery stores, marijuana dispensaries, and restaurants, and not allowing the gathering of the Saints for worship. . . is in fact, persecution of the Christian faith over one of her central tenants.

Why? Because the gathering for the purpose of corporate worship is at the heart of the purpose of the church. Forbidding that gathering and allowing others is inherently discriminatory. All claims that the church isn't being persecuted for our beliefs are in error at this point. Our core belief is that we are commanded to gather and worship God. Forbidding this and allowing others to gather is inherently persecuting Christians over a central doctrine of the Christian faith. It is implicitly saying, "We reject the notion that your gathering to worship God is an essential aspect of life. We deem your gathering as less important than these others. We will not allow you to practice a central doctrine of your faith. We reject your doctrine. We deem your gathering as non-essential and will instruct you on when it is permissible."

Corporate gathering for worship is what our faith is about. It is a central doctrine of the Christian faith. Some might say, "We aren't being persecuted! We can still believe in Jesus!" Yes. The State will allow us to believe that. For now, anyway. However, when the State permits gathering for the purposes of buying marijuana, condoms, vodka, and procuring abortions, and forbids the corporate gathering for the purpose of worshipping Jesus Christ and threatens to treat Christians who gather as criminals, brothers and sisters, the Church is being persecuted for her beliefs. It's an abysmal and truncated view of the Christian worldview to suggest that our faith consists of only believing in Jesus. The Christian faith is far more comprehensive than that.

We don't seem to grasp this. Maybe, that's what this trial is revealing?

Here's my comments about the post:


Phil Johnson and John MacArthur have a more balanced position on this matter. Jeff is a theonomist and this affects his worldview in this regard. I do not agree with him nor do I think that engaging in chest-beating at the government like old male gorillas helps this issue. I personally do not think the appointed officials are targeting the church like Jeff or others seem to believe and I don't think this paranoid mentality is helpful. It reminds me of the cult I belonged to as a younger person. However at some point the isolation has to stop and we are going to have to experience the inevitable deaths that will result. Compassionate people just aren't willing to throw the weak and old under the bus just yet. It sounds like some Christians are perfectly willing to, though.

By the way I do acknowledge at some point and in certain countries Christians are targeted by their governments but I do not believe that is what is behind the Covid 19 decisions in the USA. I think the decisions are the result of an attempt to postpone and minimize the deaths that will likely result.

Additionally, the state sanctions I've seen allow for small corporate meetings of 10, 25, or more as time progresses. In the apostolic church, congregations were likely smaller than this. I don't see how these guidelines prohibit a smaller, intimate fellowship experience in the short term.

Walmarts and other businesses selling food and prescriptions are practicing strict rules in regards to distancing and maximum capacities. There is no "comingling" in the ones I've seen. Individuals or groups are required to keep the 6 foot distancing rules. It is true that some businesses are allowed to continue as "essential" for reasons that are bizarre, such as gun shops and ranges, but at the same time there may be more to this than meets the eye, such as the need to supply law enforcement with practice time, ammunition and weapons, and to protect private property during the unrest that may result from this situation.

Anyways, keep beating your chests, folks. I hope you are happy venting your aggressions at elected officials, which are likely just trying to do their best in a very difficult situation, and are trying to avoid throwing your grandparents and possibly some of your vulnerable friends and family under the bus.

And, by the way, I wonder how much of the motives of the church and individuals actually relate to the economic impact this situation is having rather than humanitarian concerns. Maybe the church simply doesn't want to forego the income it is losing due to Covid19. Could it be that is part of the reasoning behind attacking the government on this issue? Could it be that is part of the reason Christians are attacking the government? Maybe Christians in the USA are afraid they will lose their solid middle class position due to the economic repercussions,and that is their primary concern rather than the health and well-being of their fellow church members.

I suggest sending in your offerings regardless of whether you are attending or not. But, it is fair to ask this question about personal and church leadership motives since the motives of elected officials are being questioned. What are the motives of church leadership? Are they strictly to defend Christianity or is it about economic effects on them and their budgets and salaries? What is the motive of the individual member? Is it their personal financial situation with little regards for the health of others? It's a fair question since motives are being examined and imputed to others. How would you feel when others examine YOUR motives and make insinuations about them that are not true? That's what I see going on.

Rather than realizing that the situation is very complex and the elected officials are simply doing the best they can to make wise decisions with limited knowledge, motives are being attributed to them that may be way off base. Suppose others start examining your motives, and claim that your budget and salaries are the major factor rather than your concern for the flock? Note that I am not saying this is true in a significant number of cases (I don't believe it is a significant factur but I believe some are concerned with this), but it is a fair question. If you are going to scrutinize the motives of public officials and their decisions in a very difficult matter such as how to handle Covid19, then your motives should be fair game too. Is it related to your personal or church budgets and economic well being more so than the health of older and weaker individuals?

I guess after being unable to meet for services following a near-fatal accident for several months, I am a bit more flexible in this regard. I also realize that the apostle Paul spent years in confinement and still remained productive and growing in his relationship with the LORD. It is not the ideal state, but neither is it a show-stopper.

 

[Nehemiah6]

My opinion is that the government has no ill intentions regarding Christianity related to these actions.

While the federal government and the DOJ have no ill intentions, that cannot be said for the evil Democratic governors in several states who are going after churches and Christians. They have targeted Christians by calling liquor stores "essential* and churches "non-essential*. Imagine the absurdity! So you are safe if you are drunk, but unsafe if you worship.

IMO churches should totally REJECT all attempts to control their services or insist on any of this nonsense about social distancing, wearing masks, restricting the numbers in attendance. This is a good time for all Christians to say that they must obey God rather than men. And in the USA they have the Constitution right to do so (unlike many other countries).

 

[Nehemiah6]

Trump has ordered churches to be re-opened..

That means nothing if the governors defy Trump. Had he taken charge at the very beginning and ensured that a presidential Executive Order would override everything else (while protecting constitutional liberties, health and safety) we would not be seeing what is happening across the USA.

 

[p_rehbein]

IMO, from what I have discerned; Governments (City, County, State and Federal) targeted those Businesses and such that DO NOT generate much or any Tax Revenues. It appears that those Businesses that DO generate such Revenues were deemed critical/necessary. That's based on what I have seen here.

I remained convinced that the fact that they ordered Churches to suspend Services was completely unConstitutional............... and, from all I have read, I am not alone.

Anyhoo, the Churches are beginning to start having Services again.......... Most Congregations found ways to continue worshiping God through all this, and, if one looks at History, what problems they had because of this crisis does not measure up to the problems Congregations had in years gone by.

No one was hunting down Christians and imprisoning them or crucifying them, and there have been far worse times for the Church.......

NOTHING or NO ONE can shut down the Church unless the Church allows them to. The Church belongs to God, and no man or Government, or earthly power will SHUT DOWN God.....or His Church.

 

[Grandpa]

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


The states aren't allowed to make laws that go against the constitution. They get struck down in federal court. Well, that's the way its supposed to work.


This is a CONSTITUTIONAL right. No one can make laws against people going to church. No matter what. If someone PERSONALLY feels it is unsafe for them to go to church then they make the decision FOR THEMSELVES, on what they feel is safe or unsafe. THEY DON'T AND CAN'T DECIDE FOR EVERYONE. Like what has been done.


Does anyone really think that going to wal-mart is fine but going to church is dangerous? Give me a break.

 

[Dave-L]

Social distancing did not work. So I think they are now turning to herd immunity. Thin the herd by putting them together where only the strong survive. And no better place for that than public gatherings with lots of singing.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


The states aren't allowed to make laws that go against the constitution. They get struck down in federal court. Well, that's the way its supposed to work.


This is a CONSTITUTIONAL right. No one can make laws against people going to church. No matter what. If someone PERSONALLY feels it is unsafe for them to go to church then they make the decision FOR THEMSELVES, on what they feel is safe or unsafe. THEY DON'T AND CAN'T DECIDE FOR EVERYONE. Like what has been done.


Does anyone really think that going to wal-mart is fine but going to church is dangerous? Give me a break.

Walmart is one of the places people go for food. Food is a necessity for survival.

Now, the remark might be made that church meetings are where spiritual food is dispensed, and spiritual survival depends on it, but there are many more sources than the local church. They can start by reading the Bible on their own.

These memes about Walmart might appeal to simple thinkers, but they still don't prove that the government is trying to suppress Christianity through Covid 19 guidelines.

But, I guess no matter how you view it, maybe some of the anti-authoritarian individuals who think the guidelines were excessive will sing a different tune when they contract the virus, if they live through it.

There was one church that suffered several fatalities in Washington State related to a church choir practice meetings before the guidelines were in place. At least now people can't claim they weren't warned.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/01/us/washington-choir-practice-coronavirus-deaths/index.html

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Social distancing did not work. So I think they are now turning to herd immunity. Thin the herd by putting them together where only the strong survive. And no better place for that than public gatherings with lots of singing.

Yes, actually if the government wanted to get rid of Christians through the Covid 19 pandemic, allowing them to meet would be the way

 

[Grandpa]

Walmart is one of the places people go for food. Food is a necessity for survival.

Now, the remark might be made that church meetings are where spiritual food is dispensed, and spiritual survival depends on it, but there are many more sources than the local church. They can start by reading the Bible on their own.

These memes about Walmart might appeal to simple thinkers, but they still don't prove that the government is trying to suppress Christianity through Covid 19 guidelines.

But, I guess no matter how you view it, maybe some of the anti-authoritarian individuals who think the guidelines were excessive will sing a different tune when they contract the virus, if they live through it.

There was one church that suffered several fatalities in Washington State related to a church choir practice meetings before the guidelines were in place. At least now people can't claim they weren't warned.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/01/us/washington-choir-practice-coronavirus-deaths/index.html

All the reasons for churches to not gather are great. It is perfect for people who despise Christianity in America. Because it even makes sense to Christians.

If YOU PERSONALLY feel unsafe going to church then don't go.

However, the Constitution of the United States is supposed to protect the peoples right to exercise their religion. In fact, the Constitution says that laws can't be made regarding establishments of religion.

So your reasoning can be used to cause Christians to not go to church.

But LAWS should never be able to be placed to cause Christians to not go to church.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

All the reasons for churches to not gather are great. It is perfect for people who despise Christianity in America. Because it even makes sense to Christians.

If YOU PERSONALLY feel unsafe going to church then don't go.

However, the Constitution of the United States is supposed to protect the peoples right to exercise their religion. In fact, the Constitution says that laws can't be made regarding establishments of religion.

So your reasoning can be used to cause Christians to not go to church.

But LAWS should never be able to be placed to cause Christians to not go to church.

My fundamental point is concerning the claim that the government is targeting Christians through Covid 19 guidelines.

I don't think they are and I believe some small group of Christians are paranoid in this regard.

If you think you should meet, go ahead. My friend Phil, a Calvary Chapel guy, is in his 70's and his church has not ceased meeting. He uses this as a badge of righteousness and continually asks me when I am going to return. Again, we are getting into the old-man chest-beating mentality. It seems like some Christians really want to measure themselves by others, and it makes them feel good to point out their attendance record.

If individuals in his church die due to exposure to Covid 19, it's on their own head. We will see how loudly they boast if this happens.

I will likely begin attending again this Sunday but it will be because our guidelines now allow for a group of 100 to meet, and that is about the congregation size.

Regarding causing Christians not to go to church, if you are saying that Christians really just want to get out of going to church, but they don't want to look bad to others in the congregation in the process, perhaps your remark makes sense. If your mentality is that you only do what is required, but no more, it might make sense. That isn't how I view Christianity personally, though. I suspect a fair number want to be there anyways.

 

[John146]

Walmart is one of the places people go for food. Food is a necessity for survival.

Now, the remark might be made that church meetings are where spiritual food is dispensed, and spiritual survival depends on it, but there are many more sources than the local church. They can start by reading the Bible on their own.

These memes about Walmart might appeal to simple thinkers, but they still don't prove that the government is trying to suppress Christianity through Covid 19 guidelines.

But, I guess no matter how you view it, maybe some of the anti-authoritarian individuals who think the guidelines were excessive will sing a different tune when they contract the virus, if they live through it.

There was one church that suffered several fatalities in Washington State related to a church choir practice meetings before the guidelines were in place. At least now people can't claim they weren't warned.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/01/us/washington-choir-practice-coronavirus-deaths/index.html

I'm not a history buff, but has there been any other time in US history where churches were prohibited to gather because of a "pandemic"? Has there been any other time in history where healthy people were ever told to quarantine themeselves?

 

[Chester]

Are governments targeting Christians or not? Almost too broad a question to give a good answer to . . .

But we know this from Revelation: government and Satan and his cohorts will use government and the established religious system to establish a worldwide Satanic system so that Satan can be worshipped (as he has wanted since the beginning)

Is this beginning already? Absolutely

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I'm not a history buff, but has there been any other time in US history where churches were prohibited to gather because of a "pandemic"? Has there been any other time in history where healthy people were ever told to quarantine themeselves?

I have seen pictures of the pandemic of 1918-1919 that showed men wearing masks at sporting events. There may be issues with making meaningful comparisons between our society and theirs, though. Our society is much more mobile.

Additionally, a massive percentage of individuals died during this pandemic.