Please help me to respond to some of my non-trinitarian friends

[Genez]

Dear friend, you seem to be reading a lot more into this than the original point that was being made.

What does church attendees and crazy Christians have to do with any of this? I think you are letting your concerns for "easy believism", false Christians and Bible verse abuse, take you away from a simple, clear, black and white statement of fact.

You quoted...
John 14:26 But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you.

Many Christians walk outside that reality, for they do not understand how to maintain walking in the Spirit. (1 John 1:9)
They walk according to their emotions, how they "personally feel" God would do things.

​

But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, ​

he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said ​

unto you." John 14:26​

​

Many get the bare essentials and never advance into maturing in Christ.
Yet you cited that passage as if it will automatically have the same benefit for all who believe.
Jesus spoke those words to those who were extremely well taught, and had sound knowledge..

This is what we are getting today!

​

For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. ​

Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great ​

number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 2 Timothy 4:3​

"Work out your own salvation in fear and trembling." That, does not happen often enough these days.
Too many feel free to be self-confident and smug, being self-assured in that what they feel is so is the truth.


So be it .............

 

[Genez]

By having a personal encounter with a trinitarian.

Give them John 1:1.
Then give them John 1:14.

Then leave them to the Holy Spirit's work.

It's not logical as much as it's spiritual before it can become logical

 

[DavyP]

Greetings brothers and sisters. I have some Christian friends that are not trinitarians. What is the Trinity?
one God in three persons (one being or essence with 3 personalities)
co-eternal (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have always existed)
co-essential (they share the same essence)
co-equal (the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God)
eternal generation (the begotten Son has always existed)
dual natures of Christ in one person (divine and human)
in their union each nature preserves its distinct attributes (Jesus is all human and all God)
two wills in Christ- divine and human- never conflict
One of my non-trinitarian friends says that Jesus was a Jew who believed the same about God as other Jews. First century Jews did not believe in the Trinity. Their Scriptures proclaimed radical monotheism. The reason why the Jews do not believe in the Trinity, then or now, is because of the Jewish Scriptures that proclaim monotheism.
....

You might have returned answer with what Jesus asked the blind Pharisees here...

Matt 22:41-46
41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,

42 Saying, "What think ye of Christ? whose son is he?" They say unto Him, "The Son of David."

43 He saith unto them, "How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
44 'The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit Thou on My right hand, till I make Thine enemies Thy footstool?'
45 If David then call him Lord, how is He his son?"

46 And no man was able to answer Him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask Him any more questions.
KJV

 

[DavyP]

Matthew 1:23 quotes about Jesus being born of a virgin from the Isaiah 7 prophecy, His name being "Immanuel", which means "God with us" per Matt.1:23.

Matt 1:21-23
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call His name JESUS: for He shall save His people from their sins.
22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
KJV

How can Lord Jesus Christ be "God with us", since that's what His name "Immanuel" means?

It's actually very simple; it's because like Hebrews 1:3 declares that Jesus of Nazareth is the "express image of His person" (meaning The Father's Person):

Heb 1:1-3
1 God, Who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, Whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by Whom also He made the worlds;

3 Who being the brightness of His glory, and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
KJV

 

[decipher]

My friend says that the Father and Son relationship occurs twice in our reality. It occurred before creation and it occurred when Jesus was born.
Heb 1 :5-7 For unto which of the angels said He at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again , I will be to him a Father, and He shall be to Me a Son? And again, when He bringeth in the first-begotteen into the world, He saith, " And let all the angels of God worship Him. And of the angels He saith , Who maketh His angels spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire.
Christ's existence emanated from the Father's (mind) from which all things exist. Christ is the first and only living spiritual being that came from the Father. That is why He is the Father's Son. Just like the Father, Christ has His own mind, heart, and soul. Because the Father's essence (Holy Spirit) completely fills Christ's being, Christ, with His free will, chooses to love and obey Him. That is why He sits at the Father's right hand (to do the Father's will). The Father communicates His will to the Son through His essence (Holy Spirit). The Son is One with the Father because the Father communicates and empowers through His Holy Spirit. The Son's will might differ from the Father, but the Son gladly acquiesces to the will of the Father. When Christ became a man, the essence of God the Father, through which Mary's seed was fertilized, again resulted in Christ being born but this time as a human. The Father and Son relationship occurs a second time.
Isaiah 43: 10 ... before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
This verse clearly states that the speaker is the only God formed. This verse is spoken by Christ because the Father has no beginning but apparently, the God (Christ) in Isaiah 43: 10 had a time that existed before Him which means that He didn't always exist in the past. Actually, the beginning started when Christ was formed out of the Father's mind. Alpha and Omega means the first and the last. The Son was the first being formed in our reality before creation and the Father put all things created under his feet which means that the Son is our Lord and our God in our reality, but the Father is Lord and God of all realities.

 

[Cameron143]

My friend says that the Father and Son relationship occurs twice in our reality. It occurred before creation and it occurred when Jesus was born.
Heb 1 :5-7 For unto which of the angels said He at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again , I will be to him a Father, and He shall be to Me a Son? And again, when He bringeth in the first-begotteen into the world, He saith, " And let all the angels of God worship Him. And of the angels He saith , Who maketh His angels spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire.
Christ's existence emanated from the Father's (mind) from which all things exist. Christ is the first and only living spiritual being that came from the Father. That is why He is the Father's Son. Just like the Father, Christ has His own mind, heart, and soul. Because the Father's essence (Holy Spirit) completely fills Christ's being, Christ, with His free will, chooses to love and obey Him. That is why He sits at the Father's right hand (to do the Father's will). The Father communicates His will to the Son through His essence (Holy Spirit). The Son is One with the Father because the Father communicates and empowers through His Holy Spirit. The Son's will might differ from the Father, but the Son gladly acquiesces to the will of the Father. When Christ became a man, the essence of God the Father, through which Mary's seed was fertilized, again resulted in Christ being born but this time as a human. The Father and Son relationship occurs a second time.
Isaiah 43: 10 ... before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
This verse clearly states that the speaker is the only God formed. This verse is spoken by Christ because the Father has no beginning but apparently, the God (Christ) in Isaiah 43: 10 had a time that existed before Him which means that He didn't always exist in the past. Actually, the beginning started when Christ was formed out of the Father's mind. Alpha and Omega means the first and the last. The Son was the first being formed in our reality before creation and the Father put all things created under his feet which means that the Son is our Lord and our God in our reality, but the Father is Lord and God of all realities.

So how are they one? Your friend just made the case for 2.

 

[awelight]

I was aware of this simple assertion of fact when I made the post. It's not a very good assertion of fact, though. If this was about the Holy Spirit's ministry in believers, as you say, you are basically left with Calvinism; because you have people receiving the Holy Spirit and then having the trinity revealed to them, and then you consider them believers- but it is only believers that will receive the Spirit to begin with.

But here's what Jesus said about how he would be revealed in the days when the Holy Spirit is poured out: "The one who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and reveal Myself to him.” and “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him."

"2nd person of the trinity" is not his words; that is the words of dogma, revealed by the revealers of dogma- and received and so easily explained by every Catholic whether they actually believe it or not because it is a tradition of man.

There is a lot I could say here but you seem to be convinced of your position. If you were questioning my understanding that would be different. I have not the desire to go on endlessly in such a discussion, which in the end, would end up being fruitless.

 

[awelight]

You quoted...
John 14:26 But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you.

Many Christians walk outside that reality, for they do not understand how to maintain walking in the Spirit. (1 John 1:9)
They walk according to their emotions, how they "personally feel" God would do things.

​

But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, ​

he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said ​

unto you." John 14:26​

​

Many get the bare essentials and never advance into maturing in Christ.
Yet you cited that passage as if it will automatically have the same benefit for all who believe.
Jesus spoke those words to those who were extremely well taught, and had sound knowledge..

This is what we are getting today!

​

For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. ​

Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great ​

number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 2 Timothy 4:3​

"Work out your own salvation in fear and trembling." That, does not happen often enough these days.
Too many feel free to be self-confident and smug, being self-assured in that what they feel is so is the truth.


So be it .............

I couldn't agree with you more. There are a multitude of problems in and out of the church today. Indeed, these problems were prophesied long ago and we are deep into the time when people will not hear sound doctrine. Nevertheless, I can't agree with your one conclusion, as quoted here: "Yet you cited that passage as if it will automatically have the same benefit for all who believe."

I maintain that it will, limited to ones knowledge of the Scriptures. For the Holy Spirit cannot bring to mind the things which are not yet known within that mind. However, one does not have to be taught by another human being. We have the completed revelation of God to His people. A Regenerated individual, only needs to read and study God's Holy Word and the Holy Spirit will reveal THE TRUTH to that one. The Holy Spirit will not lead this one into error, especially where God and Christ are concerned. This was the only point I was making.

There is a rational for this thinking. For the one being saved, he must be able to answer whom Jesus Christ is... otherwise, you could shape Jesus Christ into whatever you want him to be. To have saving faith, is to believe in the Jesus Christ of the Bible and that Jesus Christ only. John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall all be taught of God. Every one that hath heard from the Father, and hath learned, cometh unto me. The Lord made it clear, in order for one to come to Him, that one must be taught of the Spirit, heard the words of the Father, (John 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I say unto you I speak not from myself: but the Father abiding in me doeth his works.), and then will be drawn by those words to the Son. This guiding work of the Holy Spirit, is also spoken of in 1 Thessalonians 4:9 - But concerning love of the brethren ye have no need that one write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another;

Therefore, the real problem we have in the world today, are people speaking and teaching about God who are not led by the Spirit. Churches are full of unregenerate people, being led by unregenerate, intellectual and humanistic preachers. However, this is no excuse for a true believer. Each and every true believer has a desire for THE OBJECTIVE TRUTH - not just any ole' subjective truth. But, churches are full of so-called believers, that have a Bible for show but at home it collects dust. Every true believer, has a responsibility to search the Scriptures, to confirm what has been said by another.

Finally, I will say, that even true believers can stray from the truth because of their own bias. Not in the things needed for laying hold of the true Christ, which would effect their salvation but in doctrinal things effecting their proper growth in the faith.

I hope you see what I am getting at. Unfortunately, these chat forums are to limited for such a complexed discussion.

 

[UnoiAmarah]

However, one does not have to be taught by another human being.

I wonder how many know who taught them how to read the written spoken word....

We have the completed revelation of God to His people

Maybe...

 

[Genez]

I couldn't agree with you more. There are a multitude of problems in and out of the church today. Indeed, these problems were prophesied long ago and we are deep into the time when people will not hear sound doctrine. Nevertheless, I can't agree with your one conclusion, as quoted here: "Yet you cited that passage as if it will automatically have the same benefit for all who believe."

I maintain that it will, limited to ones knowledge of the Scriptures. For the Holy Spirit cannot bring to mind the things which are not yet known within that mind. However, one does not have to be taught by another human being. We have the completed revelation of God to His people. A Regenerated individual, only needs to read and study God's Holy Word and the Holy Spirit will reveal THE TRUTH to that one. The Holy Spirit will not lead this one into error, especially where God and Christ are concerned. This was the only point I was making.

There is a rational for this thinking. For the one being saved, he must be able to answer whom Jesus Christ is... otherwise, you could shape Jesus Christ into whatever you want him to be. To have saving faith, is to believe in the Jesus Christ of the Bible and that Jesus Christ only. John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall all be taught of God. Every one that hath heard from the Father, and hath learned, cometh unto me. The Lord made it clear, in order for one to come to Him, that one must be taught of the Spirit, heard the words of the Father, (John 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I say unto you I speak not from myself: but the Father abiding in me doeth his works.), and then will be drawn by those words to the Son. This guiding work of the Holy Spirit, is also spoken of in 1 Thessalonians 4:9 - But concerning love of the brethren ye have no need that one write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another;

Therefore, the real problem we have in the world today, are people speaking and teaching about God who are not led by the Spirit. Churches are full of unregenerate people, being led by unregenerate, intellectual and humanistic preachers. However, this is no excuse for a true believer. Each and every true believer has a desire for THE OBJECTIVE TRUTH - not just any ole' subjective truth. But, churches are full of so-called believers, that have a Bible for show but at home it collects dust. Every true believer, has a responsibility to search the Scriptures, to confirm what has been said by another.

Finally, I will say, that even true believers can stray from the truth because of their own bias. Not in the things needed for laying hold of the true Christ, which would effect their salvation but in doctrinal things effecting their proper growth in the faith.

I hope you see what I am getting at. Unfortunately, these chat forums are to limited for such a complexed discussion.

So? We do not need a man to teach us?

Who taught them that? A house cat?
A man did! Its not what you think it means.

You are at a stage right now that has not yet discovered that the translations you think you can teach yourself from is going to cause spiritual diseases like one who eats refined flour and sugar...

God has provided for those who will find that their idealism can no longer replace sound teachings. There are only a few good teachers to be found today. Just like 2 Timothy 4:3.. said many will seek out a great number of bad teachers to satisfy their sweet tooth.

​

For the time will come when people will not put up with/tolerate sound doctrine. ​

Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers ​

to say what their itching ears want to hear." 2 Timothy 4:3​

What a man is not supposed to teach you is what?

Is how to think about a good teaching from a teacher that God gifted to teach you.
For the anointing you have received?
It will teach you how to think for yourself after hearing the sound doctrinal teachings that a GOOD pastor-teacher will present.

Lots of luck finding a good pastor TEACHER today.
Most will tell you what you want to hear, not what you need to hear.

For the time will come when people will not put up with/tolerate sound doctrine. ​

Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers ​

to say what their itching ears want to hear." 2 Timothy 4:3​

Most pastors today have learned how to sell a product that he knows certain minds will want to hear.

Only a few will find it. Jesus warned that will be the case.
Sad to say... many will be selling a product that they hope others will accept.

​

​

Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, ​

because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.​

James 3:1​

Not many, it says.
There is an over-abundance of teachers today.
Only a few are under God's control.

There will be someone who knows exactly what you want to hear.
The Good ones will tell us what we need to hear.

grace and peace ...........

 

[DavyP]

My friend says that the Father and Son relationship occurs twice in our reality. It occurred before creation and it occurred when Jesus was born.
Heb 1 :5-7 For unto which of the angels said He at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again , I will be to him a Father, and He shall be to Me a Son? And again, when He bringeth in the first-begotteen into the world, He saith, " And let all the angels of God worship Him. And of the angels He saith , Who maketh His angels spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire.
Christ's existence emanated from the Father's (mind) from which all things exist. Christ is the first and only living spiritual being that came from the Father. That is why He is the Father's Son. Just like the Father, Christ has His own mind, heart, and soul. Because the Father's essence (Holy Spirit) completely fills Christ's being, Christ, with His free will, chooses to love and obey Him. That is why He sits at the Father's right hand (to do the Father's will). The Father communicates His will to the Son through His essence (Holy Spirit). The Son is One with the Father because the Father communicates and empowers through His Holy Spirit. The Son's will might differ from the Father, but the Son gladly acquiesces to the will of the Father. When Christ became a man, the essence of God the Father, through which Mary's seed was fertilized, again resulted in Christ being born but this time as a human. The Father and Son relationship occurs a second time.
Isaiah 43: 10 ... before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
This verse clearly states that the speaker is the only God formed. This verse is spoken by Christ because the Father has no beginning but apparently, the God (Christ) in Isaiah 43: 10 had a time that existed before Him which means that He didn't always exist in the past. Actually, the beginning started when Christ was formed out of the Father's mind. Alpha and Omega means the first and the last. The Son was the first being formed in our reality before creation and the Father put all things created under his feet which means that the Son is our Lord and our God in our reality, but the Father is Lord and God of all realities.

That's actually not what The Bible teaches.

The Book of Hebrews does not teach that Christ was ever 'created.' Hebrews declares that The Father created all things THROUGH The Son. That means Christ was co-Creator with The Father, meaning Christ is part of The Triune Godhead.

Many wrongly interpret Hebrews when it says Jesus was made a little lower than the angels, which is actually about Jesus being born in the flesh to die on the cross, and not about Jesus' status as The Christ Immanuel, God with us.

Heb 2:9
9 But we see Jesus, Who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that He by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
KJV

 

[decipher]

So how are they one? Your friend just made the case for 2.

Read post #113 on this thread.

 

[Cameron143]

Read post #113 on this thread.

I did. In it He makes the case for 3, not just 2.

 

[Rufus]

Wasn't meant to be profound. I don't think there's anything wrong with looking at theological concepts of the Godhead; but as you said yourself; it's not your job to make one see it; moreover, I haven't seen a substantial difference in the lives those who hold one position over the other. A better "response" than endless philosophical discourse, is the living epistle of your life.

Is that better?

Maybe you haven't lived long enough yet...to when you will step into eternity at death.

John 8:24
24 I said, therefore, to you, that ye shall die in your sins, for if ye may not believe that I |AM [he], ye shall die in your sins.'
YLT

P.S. The "he" is added by the translators and is not in the extant manuscripts. This is but one of seven instances (I believe) that Jesus claimed to be divine, i.e. "I AM".

 

[Genez]

That's actually not what The Bible teaches.

The Book of Hebrews does not teach that Christ was ever 'created.'

He was not ever created.
For his soul was uniquely begotten (not created) before the creation of time!

Therefore, without time? When begotten, there could be no beginning!
Therefore? Without a beginning? His Soul has been eternal in existence.



God does not mind telling us truth that will initially confuse us.
For, the Father does that, because He wants us to grow in wisdom and knowledge...

Heaven is going to be the meaning of "Great!"

 

[Genez]

I did. In it He makes the case for 3, not just 2.

....................... Who's on first?

 

[Cameron143]

....................... Who's on first?

Yes

 

[SomeDisciple]

Maybe you haven't lived long enough yet...to when you will step into eternity at death.

Not even a coherent sentence.

And I'm not even sure what the point of the rest of your post is either.

 

[Cameron143]

Not even a coherent sentence.

And I'm not even sure what the point of the rest of your post is either.

That's often a problem in chat. Some people think you should read their mind, while others think they can read yours.

 

[Genez]

That's often a problem in chat. Some people think you should read their mind, while others think they can read yours.

And, some require you wear 3D glasses for those who are double minded...