Pisteuo, and John 3:16
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Yeah you sort of explained why you don’t agree and explained what the words really mean lol here’s what I would share with you though
“Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.”
Romans 10:17 NIV
Aleta see if the lord our creator and savior could teach us anything
““Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?
As for everyone who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice, I will show you what they are like. They are like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built.
But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete.””
Luke 6:46-49 NIV
arhat shouod shape faith in a believer who’s willing to listen to Jesus thier savior who was sent to tell us the truth
aid they do that listening and believing in him knowing he’s not lying or misleading them then you would actually begin heering Paul’s doctrine to the church and thinking would change this will happen
“if so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: ( Thisnos the missing element ) that ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; and be renewed in the spirit of your mind; ( Thisnos what learning from Jesus does ) and that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. ( that’s where obedience is found in the new creetiee )
Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: neither give place to the devil. Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: and be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.”
Ephesians 4:21-32 KJV
the problem is nonone seems willing to listen to the things our lord told us in the gospel about salvation and damnation or even actually read what Paul’s written . we tend to look for reasons it doesn’t apply to us or doesn’t mean what it plainly says , but his word has always been the source of mankind’s life so when we reject it there’s nothing left
“Saving belief in Jesus goes beyond simply believing what Jesus said about things.”
yeah I realize the idea is to get away from what he said but that’s been proven foolish since Adam that’s why he died he rejected gods word and accepted the other guys word .
and what I actually said was to get out of the circle again I said “ if we believe in Jesus alone then shouldn’t we accept what he said will save or condemn us ? “
i hadnt said anything about that being all there was to it I said I agreed that fsith needs to be in Jesus alone to be saved . Then I asked you a question that if we have all our faith and trust in Jesus to save us ….. then shouldn’t we accept what he said will save us ??? And not reject and reason why we don’t need to hear it like he said ?
does having faith mean “ now I don’t need to listen to what God says or obey anything he says I need to obey ?”
some folks simply don’t want to hear what Jesus said because it’s not what they already think and have been told. But in my opinion for what that’s worth I don’t know but having faith in Jesus alone would then mean his words that he himself repeatedly made so important to salvation probably should have some wieght in our mind and heart since again “our faith is in him alone “ for salvation …..
thats kind of the dispute when you get down to it what does saving faith mean ? Now I don’t need to do what god said I need to do ? That’s not faith it’s the opposite of faith . Again like if Noah had told god “ I believe in you lord so therefore I don’t need to do what you said will save me “ not faith at all . Faith is why we can obey him not the reason we don’t need to
I’ve read Roman’s chapter ten probably 100 times so I don’t really need a thread on verse 17 it’s well explained in the chapter it’s found in
Hey , that works for me.
I wish you luck in your journey of obeying Gods word to receive His Spirit.
… why add to what I said ? We receive the spirit because we believe the gospel like this
“While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.”
Acts 10:44
receiving the spirit happens because we hear the gospel being preached and don’t reject it it doesn’t change anything else though
“This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. ( he’s talking about baptism in Jesus name see Roman’s 6 Colossians 2) If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.”
Galatians 5:16, 19-25 KJV
We receive the spirit in order to follow after him walking in the spirit of the gospel continuing to follow our Kurt’s in our flesh isn’t going to lead anyone to salvation but to the judgement Paul taught about and Jesus taught about and the prophets taught about ect
about naw I never said anything about obeying to receive the spirit …. The soirit is a deposit beforhand so we have a companion to lead us and to follow after like Jesus said in John 14-16
that teaches all about his spirit with us receiving the spirit is based upon n believing the gospel of Christ when it’s preached . That doesn’t then erase all the chrich is taught about repentance and obedience being required though that stuff is also all true and relevant doctrine taught by Jesus and his apostles including Paul
“Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; and walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
…But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.”
Ephesians 5:1-7 KJV
If we don’t repent of those things we will end up with no inheritance in the eternal Kingdom of God which is what it’s all about and why they all preached the kingdom it’s the gospel
Of course we should. Jesus clearly drew the line in the sand in on who will not be condemned and who will be condemned. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
If we are truly trusting in Jesus to save us then we are trusting in Jesus alone to save us and not in works. We need to make sure we understand what Jesus actually said when studying the scriptures applying exegesis and not eisegesis.
No. What kind faith says I don't need to obey anything God says?
Salvation comes through faith in Jesus Christ alone and if we truly have been saved through faith then it will show in our actions. All genuine believers are fruitful but not all are equally fruitful.
Faith is only as good as the OBJECT that we place it in. If Noah had refused to build the ark then he would have demonstrated a lack of faith in what God told him about flooding the earth but of course that was not the case.
“Jesus clearly drew the line in the sand in on who will not be condemned and who will be condemned. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”
Amen , Yeah Jesus who we need to believe in also said this
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Mark 16:15-16 KJV
does john 3:16 mean mark is not telling the truth or that what Jesus said there doesn’t count or apply ? Or what about here ? Is this untrue because of John 3:16 ?
“For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”
John 3:34-36 KJV
is this one not true ?
“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.”
John 12:48-50 KJV
how about the many other things Jesus and Paul taught about being judged one day according to what we have said and done ? Or baptism for the remission of sins in Jesus name ? Or communion which Paul preached and made extremely important concerning drinking damnation upon oneself ?
the logic being implied by some is “ this one verse here is true but those other 99 aren’t because this one is “
It’s counterproductive to building any real faith that will move people to action that’s what scriptire will do because repentance and obedience aren’t avoidable in the doctrine since Eden actually and to the end of revelation it’s there as a determining factor between heaven and hell life and death ect
The gospel is about changing sinners to people who live upright lives in faithfulness to him from thier newly formed heart .
Bit either way I’m not willing to ignore things like this or reason why they aren’t true or don’t apply
“and being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;”
Hebrews 5:9 KJV
Im not willing to pretend that doesn’t exist in basically every other chapter in the Bible so I’m not able to agree with some arguments here but I respect your right to have your own conclusions that differ from mine bro
Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely necessary for salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief and not on a lack of baptism. *NOWHERE does the Bible say, "baptized or condemned."
If water baptism was absolutely required for salvation, then we would expect Jesus to mention it in the following verses. (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) Yet what is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions NINE different times in each of these complete statements *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism *Hermeneutics. If he wo believes shall be saved then he who believes and is baptized shall be saved as well.
John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
In regard to Hebrews 5:9, who obeys Him? The saved or the lost? Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by practicing righteousness and not sin. (1 John 3:9,10). In either sense, only believers obey Him.
Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith its impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to receive salvation by works. So in either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.
The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation . The gospel is a message of grace that is to be received through faith. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works (including water baptism) to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation.
Again this illustrates my point well your argument is Jesus said anyone who believes in John 3:16 but when he says to his disciples “preach the gospel to all people whoever believes and is baptized shall be saved “
now all the sudden seeing the scriptire , you need to explain at length to me why what he said doesn’t actually mean what he said . To the goal of eliminating actually doing what he said in this case getting baptized for remission of sins in his name a doctrine he commanded his apostles to do for all nations . In Matthew 28 probably another place you’ll explain why it doesn’t really mean what Jesus says here thisnis the actual Christian doctrine
“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
Matthew 28:18-20 KJV
So what did they do ? Peter receives the Holy Ghost as Jesus proposed and then begins to preach the gospel to the people from many nations at pentocost then nearing his conclusion
“Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.”
Acts 2:36-43
Peter is doing what Jesus told him to do not removing everything but “ jesus does and rose now you wre saved the end “ he’s doing what Jesus commanded them to do in the great commission of the gospel to the world . Now of course lol “ water baptism “ as of the apostles didn’t baptize in water …..tbis wont matter because I’ve showed it many times but here’s that the apostles were doing when they baptized people
“Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.”
Acts 8:35-39 KJV
That’s a good illustration of how baptism is performed by an apostle under command of Jesus filled with the Holy Ghost . It involves water whether people say “ water baptism isn’t baptism “ it doesn’t matter jesus was baptized in water just like the believer in him was later . baptism involves water and Jesus name and Jesus death and resurrection for our sins and justifcation
Paul teaches a lot about that but it’s hard to learn when our motive is to remove any actions we’re told we need to take. Would you like to explore what Paul taught about baptism ? Or pretend the apostles didn’t know how to baptize people because they baptized in water , In the same way Jesus was ?
I like discussing what the Bible says things like baptism means for us and there’s a lot of great stuff but I don’t like arguing over things that are simple and obvious like baptism for remission of sins in Jesus name .
The only problem with that assessment is through all trampling and the name calling, the staff running all those sites for 38 years never took any of those "bogus" facts off the threads.
I credit them for having the courage to allow something they probably don't fully agree with, but know all the facts are rock solid and have to be acknowledged.
You should take a lesson from them.
Again, general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized. So, according to your gospel, whoever is not baptized shall be condemned? Jesus did not say that in Mark 16:16.
In Matthew 28:19-20, we have here a command from Jesus to go and make disciples of all nations, and baptize converts. However, it does not say here that baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation. The same command also includes the clause "teaching them to observe all things" that Christ has commanded them. Becoming a disciple of Jesus is signified, yet not procured in the waters of baptism. Becoming a disciple of Jesus is a heart decision that is made prior to receiving water baptism.
In Acts 2:38, for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.
*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism. (Acts 10:47)
In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.
*So, the only logical and Biblical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 13:38-39; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*
In regard to Acts 2:41, those who gladly received his word (upon repentance/faith) were "afterwards" baptized and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Acts 4:4 - However, many of those who heard the word believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand. *What happened to baptism?
Acts 5:14 - And believers were increasingly added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.
In Acts 8:36-37, the eunuch asked what hindered him from being baptized and Phillip said if you believe with all your heart, you may. The eunuch answered, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." Notice in John 20:31, we read - but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. He was saved when he believed and water baptism followed.
We are justified by faith (Romans 5:1) and not by water baptism. Do you preach baptism "in Jesus' name" only and reject the words of Jesus in Matthew 28:18-19?
Water baptism follows salvation through faith. (Acts 10:43-47)
Are you a Oneness Pentecostal or something similar?
“So, according to your gospel, whoever is not baptized shall be condemned? Jesus did not say that in Mark 16:16.”Again, general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized. So, according to your gospel, whoever is not baptized shall be condemned? Jesus did not say that in Mark 16:16.
In Matthew 28:19-20, we have here a command from Jesus to go and make disciples of all nations, and baptize converts. However, it does not say here that baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation. The same command also includes the clause "teaching them to observe all things" that Christ has commanded them. Becoming a disciple of Jesus is signified, yet not procured in the waters of baptism. Becoming a disciple of Jesus is a heart decision that is made prior to receiving water baptism.
In Acts 2:38, for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.
i don’t have a gospel there’s just one. And no that’s nothing I said at all all I did was quote what Jesus said and then said you would avoid and explain why it’s not right or some issue with it.
“command from Jesus to go and make disciples of all nations, and baptize converts. However, it does not say here that baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation.”
again your arguing against somethkng I haven’t said lol my point is that baptism is part of the doctrine and there’s no reason for anyone to try to remove or diminish it . It’s just factual baptism for remission of sins in Jesus name is commanded by Jesus at the very beginning and it was applied by him to all nations and to salvation . In those two sections of his word I showed you.
again what I’m saying is it’s part of the doctrine an important part of it . Not according to lol “ my gospel “ but according to Jesus and Paul who both preached the only gospel . Paul who taught more about baptism for remission of sins in Jesus names meaning and relevance for a believer than anyone else .
“In Acts 2:38, for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins,”
you are working really hard to dismiss a lot of plain and simple scripture with some form of logic that has no basis in my opinion it’s like whack a mole sort of Your ignoring all the important things friend like what Paul taught about baptism
“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death,we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
… knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. ( remission of sin) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
Romans 6:3-7, 11 KJV
When you begin with “ baptism isnt needed “ you should also erase all that doctrine about baptism and dying with Christ through baptism in his name and having sins grasp on you remitted and being set free ect all it’s saying there is coming from Paul’s teaching about what it means to be baptized into Christ for remission of sin and having freedom to live a a new life .
“And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: in whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;”
Colossians 2:10-13 KJV
That’s why we get baptized in his name who died for our sins and was raised up again for us also . There’s no argument to be made for why anyone would then begin explaining “ baptism isn’t needed it’s not really what they all taught it was ect ect ect there’s no basis to ever even suggest that baptism is anything but what is clearly and thoroughly taught in scripture
“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
Galatians 3:27-29 KJV
but we’ve done this bro you’ll argue that there are different baptisms water baptism is t really baptism there’s a secret spiritual baptism that is done secretly by God and we don’t need to worry about the baptism for tension. Of sins in Jesus name that the apostles were doing in water according to peoples faith in Jesus . It’s just a waste of both of our time
sill just show you Paul saying there’s one baptism and show you that’s the baptism they were always doing as Jesus commanded them to do and show you examples of them doing it in water and you’ll tell me how I just don’t get it and ester baptism isn’t correct ect ect ect we’ve already done this
Zion show you John foretelling pentocost and Jesus then again telling them the same thing and then show you them being baptized by the spirit as eas told them by Jesus and John you’ll then tell me why that’s not correct and spin a giant circle
Why wouldn’t a believer want to get baptized is the real question ?
Id say it’s because of people teaching them things that aren’t correct and that stray from what’s really there
It seems obvious to me that "baptized or condemned" is part of the gospel that you promote. The gospel that I promote is "believe or condemned." (John 3:18; Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 1:18-21; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4; 2 Corinthians 4:3,4)
Nobody is trying to remove or diminish baptism. It just needs to be put in it's proper place. Subsequent to regeneration and salvation as all rituals and good works should be.
So, what happened to baptism in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26? If it was absolutely necessary for salvation would Jesus have forgotten to mention it? What happened to baptism in Acts 3:19; 5:31; 10:43; 11:17,18; 13:38-39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:24-26; 4:5-6; 5:1; 10:4; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; 1 John 5:13 etc..). Did Peter and Paul forget to mention it?
No, I am properly harmonizing scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. Acts 2:38 must be read alongside verses like (Luke 24:47; Acts 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 13:38-39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18) where forgiveness is explicitly tied to repentance/belief/faith and not the ritual itself. Water baptism is a sign of that reality but not the source of it. You are trying to turn a sign into a savior. You must look beyond your pet verses and consider the totality of scripture.
I am not ignoring anything. Again, you must look beyond your handful of pet verses and consider the totality of scripture.
In regard to Romans 6:3-5, as Greek scholar AT Robertson explains - Baptism is the public proclamation of one's inward spiritual relation to Christ attained before the baptism. See on "Galatians 3:27" where it is like putting on an outward garment or uniform. Into his death (ei ton qanaton autou). So here "unto his death," "in relation to his death," which relation Paul proceeds to explain by the symbolism of the ordinance. The picture in baptism points two ways, backwards to Christ's death and burial and to our death to sin, forward to Christ's resurrection from the dead and to our new life pledged by the coming out of the watery grave to walk on the other side of the baptismal grave. There is the further picture of our own resurrection from the grave. It is a tragedy that Paul's majestic picture here has been so blurred by controversy that some refuse to see it. It should be said also that a symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality.
https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/rwp/romans-6.html
Before mentioning baptism in chapter 6, Paul had repeatedly emphasized that faith (not baptism) is the instrumental cause of salvation/justification. (Romans 1:16, 3:22-30; 4:4-6, 13; 5:1) That is when the old man was put to death and united in the likeness of His death, which water baptism symbolizes and pictures. Righteousness is "imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised up because of our justification." (Romans 4:24,25)
Since believers receive the benefits of Christ’s death and resurrection (justification) and that through faith, believers must be spiritually united to Him (delivered and raised up with Him). If baptism is taken as the instrumental cause, then Paul contradicts what he had established before, namely that justification is by faith, not baptism. *Hermeneutics. Paul clearly teaches that what is signified in baptism (buried and raised with Christ) actually occurs "through faith." Christians are "buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead" (Colossians 2:12). Justification on account of union in Christ's death, burial and resurrection is brought about "through faith" - and is properly symbolized by dipping the new believer in and out of the water.
CONTINUED..
In His name is a reference to authority and not a rigid, salvic baptism formula. By His authority (Matthew 28:18) I was baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, just as Jesus commanded. (Matthew 28:19)
So, you reject Spirit baptism? Noted. Galatians 3:26 - For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus (Period.) Not through faith and water baptism. Also read John 1:12 - But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name. *Received Him, given the right to become children of God, through believing in His name, not through water baptism.
Galatians 3:27 - For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on/clothed yourself with Christ. The Greek word for "put on" is "enduo" and means to enclose oneself in, as when one "puts on" clothes or armor or some other item. Involved in this is the idea of "imitation" and "identification." Just as 1 Corinthians 10:2 says that all (the Israelites) were "baptized into Moses" in the cloud and in the sea, but this does not mean that the Israelites were literally water baptized into the body of Moses. We are Spirit baptized into the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13) and the only sense that we are water baptized into Christ would be in the same sense that the Israelites were baptized into Moses. (1 Corinthians 10:2) There is little dispute that being "baptized into Moses" signified the open allegiance and public identification of the Israelites with Moses as their leader. Moses was formally recognized as the leader of the covenant people. Water baptism signifies our allegiance and public identification with Christ as our Savior, so it would only be in that sense. So how does one "put on" Christ in baptism? Is it because one becomes a "child of God" through water baptism? NO. Is Paul saying that we become children of God by water baptism as much as children of God by faith in Christ? NO.
"Let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light...put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfill the lusts thereof." (Romans 13:12,14) This exhortation is written to Christians (those already saved). Evidently then, baptism is not the only way to "put on" Christ. To "put on" Christ is to conform to Him, imitate Him. So it is in baptism; we "put on" Christ, conforming to Him in the ordinance that declares Him to be our Savior.
There is only one baptism that places us into the body of Christ and that is Spirit baptism and not water baptism. Ephesians 4:5 - ..one Lord, one faith, one baptism.
1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. *Also see John 4:10,14; 7:37-39 for the word drink(s) and see the connection with the Holy Spirit.
I agree with John and Jesus. I just don't agree wit your eisegesis.
I can't name one Christian that I know who has refused to be water baptized and I could not wait to get baptized after I received Jesus Christ through faith and was saved.
Refusing to be water baptized is not the issue. What saves is the issue. Are we saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) or are we saved by grace through faith and baptism? I agree with Paul in Ephesians 2:8,9. You agree with Roman Catholics, Mormons, Oneness Pentecostals and other works-salvationists.
“It seems obvious to me that "baptized or condemned" is part of the gospel that you promote.”
I haven’t said that no . What I said was baptism for remission of sins is part of the doctrine Jesus sent to all nations then I showed you several scriptures to support what I said . Which you don’t address
“Nobody is trying to remove or diminish baptism. It just needs to be put in it's proper place. Subsequent to regeneration and salvation as all rituals and good works should be.”
yeah the bi ke teaches us what baptism is and what it’s for alrwady you are definately working to make it a “ ritual “ when the Bible teaches its own i dersrs ing of it that you won’t acknowledge at all
again the whole “ water baptism thing “ here’s an apostle baptizing a believer
“And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.”
Acts 8:36-39
i think the apostles knew how to baptize correctly I’m ok with baptism being performed in water . And being for remission of sins in Jesus name like it plainly says and you reject. As if remission of sins and repentance aren’t about salvation …..
definately you try to diminish anything we’re taught to actually do and make it a secondary or ritual type thing . God doesn’t do that though nor did his apostles or his son . They taught all these doctrines as important and having deep meaning but you are making them “ ritual “ and not ack owledgong ehat they actually are done for and mean to the person by faith. You aren’t understanding the term faith . It’s not the reason we don’t need to act , it’s the thing we need to act.
“and said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things.”
Luke 24:46-48 KJV
Jesus died and rose was not everything of importance so was repentance and remission of sins in his name
“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.”
Acts 2:38-39 KJV
there’s no reason and explain to try to remove doctrine established by Jesus and his apostles. I’m too old for that to work brother I would t owrt with Jesus teachings and his apostles teachings for anything I don’t have the energy
Clearly and plainly and again they were baptizing in water because it is an action he’s told us about to do and in Gods eyes it’s about us being buried into Jesus death for our sins and raised up again with Christ Jesus in his eternal life again like Paul teaches us in Roman’s 6
and teaches more about in Colossians 2 and Galatians 3
look at those theee examples brother then you can tell me which parts of those are “ritualistic and secondary “ not essential doctrine of Jesus and his apostles
You mentioned acts ten but I notice you avoided this part
“While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”
Acts 10:44, 46-48 KJV
lol what if they started telling Peter “ no Peter water baptism is not the right baptism “
sorry sorry but I mean really what if they did reject baptism as an important matter ? And why wouldn’t they want to be baptized in Jesus name of they believed in him and he said believe and be baptized ? Doesn’t really make sense maybe they believe in his existsnce but not in who he was or what he said ? my point is if you don’t try to explain away all the doctrine about baptism or other subjects like you tend to do there’s nothing ever in it to teach us anything other about baptism than baptism being “ for remission of sins in Jesus name because you believe in him “ there’s no one who says “ no one needs to be baptized “ the doctrine goes deep with Paul’s writings you should do a study on everything he said about it and then consider the phrase “ baptized in Jesus name for remission of sins “
You’re a bright guy for sure and good to discuss with I think you’d probably get some value from that study of you were willing to consider what you learn is true.
why do we get baptized what does it have to do with believing Jesus died for my sins ? Does it matter ?
“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, ( he just explained tbats baptism ) we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. ( baptized into his death )
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. (He’s talking about baptism for remission of sins in Jesus name ) Being then made free from sin,( he explains above ) ye became the servants of righteousness.”
Romans 6:3-7, 17-18 KJV
that’s Paul teaching the church some of what baptism means for them who were baptized . He’s not explaining that baptism has nothing to do with anything or it’s just a secondary ritual he’s explaining the deep and powerful doctrine that baptism regards
he does the same thing with taking communion another action that is taught by Jesus and his apostles that relates directly to our faith in his atonement . Paul now teaching the church what communion means to them when they take it and also instructing then about how to take it
“and when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.”
1 Corinthians 11:24-30 KJV
You shouldn’t be able to read that and then think “ communion is a ritual it doesn’t have vital significance regarding consequential matters like damnation and being judged guilty of the body and blood of Christ you can even see at the end Paul’s sayong “ Thisnos the reason some of you are sick and have fallen asleep “
this should draw you more into communion and it’s meaning and doctrine make you want to be a partaker ect same with baptism look st the message
“ be baptized for remission of your sins in Jesus name “ I mean gods offer to remit all my sins if o am baptized in the name of his son that I believe in ?
sorry I’m not seeing the issue …… unless someone starts saying out of the blue “ baptism isn’t that it doesn’t mean what it says it’s this other thing let me explain ….
But really they already explained all this stuff in scripture that’s what the epistles are apostles explaining things we’re supposed to believe and do as members of Christs body, because we believe . We don’t say I believe and then use that as the reason we’ll never do what he said and don’t need to .
Baptism for (in order to obtain) remission of sins equates to no baptism, no remission of sins. You did not need to specifically say "baptized or condemned" because it's already implied in what you actually did say and have been repeatedly saying.
You are trying to turn a sign into a savior.
again the whole “ water baptism thing “ here’s an apostle baptizing a believer
I already covered this in post #113. Did you read my post?
Faith is not baptism and faith precedes baptism and we are saved through faith. It's just that simple.
Yes, repentance and remission of sins (faith is implied or assumed) is what we read in Luke 24:47. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.
I already thoroughly covered this in post #113.
I already covered this in post #116.
What's to avoid? These Gentiles believed, received the gift of the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues (spiritual gift that is ONLY for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12) and were saved before water baptism. Certain Jews may have wanted to forbid these Gentiles from being baptized because of their unacceptance of the Gentiles, (Acts 10:47) but Peter clearly states that SURELY NO ONE CAN REFUSE. These Gentiles were clearly SAVED BEFORE WATER BAPTISM, and the Holy Spirit was proof of this. (Romans 8:9; 1 John 4:13)
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It's not about rejecting baptism as an important matter. Water baptism is important, but it's just not the basis or means by which we obtain salvation. We must believe in Him as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation in order to be saved and not merely in His existence. You seem to believe in your baptism and not exclusively in Him.lol what if they started telling Peter “ no Peter water baptism is not the right baptism “
I don't explain away scripture. I properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. Again, Acts 2:38 must be read alongside verses like (Luke 24:47; Acts 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 13:38-39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18) where forgiveness is explicitly tied to repentance/belief/faith and not the ritual itself. Water baptism is a sign of that reality but not the source of it.
Baptism is a symbol of salvation in that it pictures Christ's death, burial and resurrection and our identification with Him in these experiences. In reality, believers are literally saved by what baptism symbolizes--Christ's death, burial and resurrection. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) Baptism would have no meaning without Christ’s death, burial and resurrection, but Christ’s death, burial and resurrection would still have meaning, even if there were no baptism. In other words, Christ’s death, burial and resurrection is the substance and baptism is the symbol/picture. Without the substance there would be no symbol/picture.
I already covered this in post #116.
Baptism is not even mentioned in Romans 6:17,18. Before they obeyed that form of doctrine in Romans 6:17 by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16), they had been slaves to sin. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"
in 1 Peter 1:22 notice - "Purified your souls in obeying the truth" and notice in Acts 15:9 - "Purified their hearts by FAITH." "Obeying the gospel" and "obeying that form of doctrine" in these passages is really a synonym for BELIEVING the gospel. Being slaves of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."
*Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness..
*Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not works) is accounted for righteousness.
As Greek scholar AT Robertson said - a symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality.
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