You don't have any special knowledge. That's the point.
Neither do you. You don't have any special knowledge from your experience. God did not give you any special knowledge, and that's my point. Your experience is not revelational knowledge. I didn't claim any special knowledge, and my statement doesn't even imply that. What I know can be known by anyone. I'd be happy to reveal all my sources if anyone asks (I've given all those links in times past).
"By their fruits you shall know them." "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with a righteous judgment." In both cases, we are commanded by Jesus to discern other people. In person, I judge attitudes by behavior. In forums, I judge people by what they say. But then you do that, too. Everyone does. The question is, how accurate are your judgments? If you are judging with a prejudice, stereotyping, or projecting on someone something that isn't there, then your judgment is false. If you judge in line with what is being said, then the judgment is true.
1. Toe the line, or you could lose your salvation and go to hell. I heard many a sermon about that.
2. Verbal whips about miniscule sins, but offering no solution. That is, fear/guilt motivation.
3. If you confess anything, you're ostracized.
4. If you fail as a leader, there are no 2nd chances. They make you feel like if you step down, God will be angry.
5. If you don't tithe, you will be cursed.
6. Don't get caught sinning, or you'll be raked over the coals. Most new Christians early learn to hide their wrongdoings.
7. Doctrine and practice says that if you haven't spoken in tongues, you haven't received the Spirit. "Just keep trying, some day you'll get it" they say. So the narrative teaches people that they lack something they need as a Christian. Hardly edifying.
8. A constant "your blessing is just around the corner" type of hype, that is, hanging a carrot in front of you, to keep you striving.
Is this enough? I could go on.
This is your statement I was addressing:
"There's the rub" - you're repeating my words sarcastically.
"Anyone who wants the in filling of the Spirit can have it" - so you do actually believe that those who don't get your experience does not have the infilling of the Spirit. You're proving my point. You think you have something from God that other Christians lack. This is the epitome of a "holier than thou" attitude. It's a systemic problem, and permeates the P/C movement.
"how I feel" - I'm not judging your feelings, I'm judging your words and the attitude in them.
"something you're projecting" - I'm not projecting feelings, I'm reading your words. And besides that, your statement is hypocritical, because you've projected wrong judgments on me several times.
"It makes me often wonder..." Wonder what?? This is a statement designed to be derogatory, acting as if you have a higher position or some mysterious knowledge that others don't have.
Yet, your every response says that you think you are.
Wrong again. My belief is based on what the Bible actually says, as I have clearly given in past times. Again, you're addressing something I don't believe in. You claim I said something I never said. You're judging and projecting on me something that doesn't exist. Your words are just hot air. You're just assuming. And I'm not assuming. I'm reading your words and responding to them. You're grasping at straws like you're desperate to be right about your beliefs. I've given proof from the scriptures that there is something wrong with the P/C movement, but you claim I have no proof. So if you really believe there cannot be any agreement between us on this issue, then why do you keep responding and arguing about it? You're just setting yourself up for frustration.
"you won't acknowledge my experience" - I never said so, this is what you project on me. But that is a loaded statement. Just exactly what do you mean? I acknowledge that you had an experience. But I say I'm a skeptic about how you interpret that experience. I point out what the Bible actually says about the experience of tongues. I point out the discrepancies in P/C doctrine about it, and the difference between what's practiced today, how it doesn't fit the framework of the NT. If this is what you mean by "won't acknowledge my experience," then no, I don't acknowledge it. But then, if you really do believe it's real, then why do you need my acknowledgement? Why do you have to keep arguing about it, as if you're desperate for my acknowledgement?
Your exaggerative language tells me you are sorely offended. It's this kind of response that leads me to believe that your tongues experience is a sacred cow.
Neither do you. You don't have any special knowledge from your experience. God did not give you any special knowledge, and that's my point. Your experience is not revelational knowledge. I didn't claim any special knowledge, and my statement doesn't even imply that. What I know can be known by anyone. I'd be happy to reveal all my sources if anyone asks (I've given all those links in times past).
Yeah, and that would be called judging. Which I could turn around on you. You're judging someone's intent and heart, you're not God.
Could you explain how they are "legalistic" please.
2. Verbal whips about miniscule sins, but offering no solution. That is, fear/guilt motivation.
3. If you confess anything, you're ostracized.
4. If you fail as a leader, there are no 2nd chances. They make you feel like if you step down, God will be angry.
5. If you don't tithe, you will be cursed.
6. Don't get caught sinning, or you'll be raked over the coals. Most new Christians early learn to hide their wrongdoings.
7. Doctrine and practice says that if you haven't spoken in tongues, you haven't received the Spirit. "Just keep trying, some day you'll get it" they say. So the narrative teaches people that they lack something they need as a Christian. Hardly edifying.
8. A constant "your blessing is just around the corner" type of hype, that is, hanging a carrot in front of you, to keep you striving.
Is this enough? I could go on.
No, you're literally judging again. And that happens often when talking about tongues. You're making an assumption that I feel speaking in tongues makes me more spiritual than you. Heard this same thing for years. That's on you, that's something you're projecting. It has nothing to do with how I feel about those who don't speak in tongues. Already said, fellowship with all kinds of saints, and only here at CC do I ever find an issue. It makes me often wonder...
Aye my friend, there's the rub. You're judging the heart of your brother/sister in Christ. Anyone who wants the in filling of the Spirit can have it, and those who don't can walk away. It has nothing to do with salvation. Seems like there is spiritual jealousy at the root humm.
"Anyone who wants the in filling of the Spirit can have it" - so you do actually believe that those who don't get your experience does not have the infilling of the Spirit. You're proving my point. You think you have something from God that other Christians lack. This is the epitome of a "holier than thou" attitude. It's a systemic problem, and permeates the P/C movement.
"how I feel" - I'm not judging your feelings, I'm judging your words and the attitude in them.
"something you're projecting" - I'm not projecting feelings, I'm reading your words. And besides that, your statement is hypocritical, because you've projected wrong judgments on me several times.
"It makes me often wonder..." Wonder what?? This is a statement designed to be derogatory, acting as if you have a higher position or some mysterious knowledge that others don't have.
Lol because you're dogmatically saying you're right. Then turn around and judge me as holier than thou. smh
Another judgement call. You're belief is based on your experience also. The Scripture says "when the perfect has come", I say that hasn't happened yet, you say it has. And this is one of the few times in Scripture that there isn't a clear answer either way. You say there is, I say there is. But neither of us can say "here, here is the day, hour, minute tongues will cease." You're assuming, I'm assuming. You can be dogmatic all day and say you're right, but you have no more proof than I do. You have your experience and I have mine. It's simply that you won't acknowledge my experience, and that would be hypocritical.
"you won't acknowledge my experience" - I never said so, this is what you project on me. But that is a loaded statement. Just exactly what do you mean? I acknowledge that you had an experience. But I say I'm a skeptic about how you interpret that experience. I point out what the Bible actually says about the experience of tongues. I point out the discrepancies in P/C doctrine about it, and the difference between what's practiced today, how it doesn't fit the framework of the NT. If this is what you mean by "won't acknowledge my experience," then no, I don't acknowledge it. But then, if you really do believe it's real, then why do you need my acknowledgement? Why do you have to keep arguing about it, as if you're desperate for my acknowledgement?
They are alive, they live in another country. How is the story embellished. He came to the Lord through tongues. Why do assume every story that doesn't back up your claim is a lie? Are you saying I'm lying? Why would I embellish the story. Now Pentecostals are liars. Record their tongues? No, I can't do that, we live a long distance from each other. Nor can I see him agreeing to such a crazy request. But listen, I can get you the name of the church and you can call and see if he'll prove to you he's not demonic. You can quiz him and see if he's a liar. I'll give you that much info privately. But you're a skeptic, so I don't see the point. If you're calling me a liar why would you believe him??
