Pentecostal view of the holy spirit.

[Ballaurena]

Been doing some reading lately on the whole tongues thing. Coming from a baptist background much of this philosophy is new to me, hopefully actual Pentecostals will reply. As I understand it most mainstream Pentecostals seem to believe there's two forms of the holy spirit. One that occurs at salvation and the other an occur at any time, and is supposed to manifest itself as tongue speaking to empower the individual. If I were to paraphrase, is it like being registered with the holy spirit at first and the recieving of actual power comes later as a sign you move on to ministry?

Seems there's a common view amongst baptists thinking pentacostals make tongues vital to salvation, but from what I've dug up, only a small handful of sub-categories seem to believe this and few of them seem to come out and say it. Closest I can find appear to say "Speaking in tongues is the only way to be absolutely sure you're saved." which I don't agree with. Though the notion of two different aspects of the holy spirit would explain some things in book of acts. So I'm guessing the attitude of Pentecostals claiming your only saved if you speak in tongues is a false stereotype?

As someone who grew up without a belief in tongues but who attended a Pentecostal college in addition to my older sister, there were indeed some who held the belief in tongues as a second level of the Holy Spirit's baptism to be expected for all if they progressed. Though they weren't pushy, they were open and honest about their beliefs and clarified at chapel one day that the belief wasn't that a person who doesn't speak in tongues isn't saved.

As for me and my family, we became aware of the continuation of gifts like tongues and prophecy via this school, for which I am extremely grateful, but after I didn't receive the gift of tongues as expected, I doubled down on my Bible study and found that the Bible speaks directly contrary to the suggestion that all are supposed to speak in tongues in both 1 Corinthians 12 and 14 (see below). For the record, God did eventually give me the gift of tongues with another fellowship because my whole prayer group asked Him to, but because of my other gifting I rarely have reason to use it, suggesting that God knew what He was doing with me in the first place.

From 1 Corinthians 12

12 Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. 14 Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many.

15 Now if the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18 But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19 If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many parts, but one body.

21 The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” And the head cannot say to the feet, “I don’t need you!” 22 On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23 and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24 while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has put the body together, giving greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25 so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26 If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.

27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.

From 1 Corinthians 14

Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. 2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. 3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. 4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.

 

[Ballaurena]

Warning.

Before getting too worked up about modern day tongues or glossolalia remember this:

You are dealing with claims of a supernatural event, nothing more.

And all you will ever be referred to are claims of the event. There will be no evidence of the claims, just the claims themselves.

Remember: He who claims is he who proves.

Incorrect, whoever wants to know the truth for him/herself is responsible to prove it. It simply doesn't work the other way practically or morally. To expect the someone else to prove it to you is a "the world owes me a living" kind of logic that demands others give what they don't have enough resources to give, nor do they owe to you even if they have it.

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

With all due respect for my elder -

So, us "Pentehostiles" who study our Bibles, have a question:

"Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe,​

but to them that believe not:..." (1 Corinthians 14:22 AV)​

​

​

"Them that believe" already know about "tongues" so no "sign. Them that believe not (as it was in Acts 2) were impressed that ignorant Galileans were speaking THER LANGUAGE = a sign.

so, those who "believe not" will then "believe when they 'see' the sign"?

It worked pretty well in acts 2

another time, a TV "tongues" speaker said "put my hand on the TV, and God will
give me the sign" = Nothing happened!! What do 'babies' know anyway?

Chuckle!! it didn't work once, so, of course it NEVER works. One fellow in our church "put his hands on the TV" when Oral said to, and was instantly healed of crippling foot issues.

Is "tongues"(?) "The Power Of God Unto Salvation,"

Of course not - it's only one of the spiritual gifts.

Thus, if Unbelievers don't want The Cross, then why would they believe the
power of the "sign of tongues"?

That plus conviction of SIN by the Holy Spirit can lead to repentance, and crying out in FAITH for salvation.

Thanks Be Unto God He Hears my prayers to Him In "my own language," eh?

Paul agrees!!! He prayed with the "Understanding", and also "in the Spirit". God's not a "One trick Pony"

 

[Ballaurena]

With all due respect for my elder -

So, us "Pentehostiles" who study our Bibles, have a question:

"Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe,​

but to them that believe not:..." (1 Corinthians 14:22 AV)​

​

So, those who "believe not" will then "believe when they 'see' the sign"? Or:

"If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and​

all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned,​

or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?" (vs 23)​

[ as a "babe In Christ," got invited to an assembly that did this = Never returned! ]

[ another time, a TV "tongues" speaker said "put my hand on the TV, and God will
give me the sign" = Nothing happened!! What do 'babies' know anyway? ]

Is "tongues"(?) "The Power Of God Unto Salvation," Or:

"For the preaching of The Cross is to them that perish foolishness; but ​

unto us which are Saved It Is The Power Of God. " (1 Corinthians 1:18 AV)​

​

Thus, if Unbelievers don't want The Cross, then why would they believe the
power of the "sign of tongues"?

Well, time for me to be a continuationist Of "tongues silence" as I have done
for 45 years, eh?

Thanks Be Unto God He Hears my prayers to Him In "my own language," eh?

'See' you here, there, or in the air! ♫

↑

Amen.

Grace, Peace, Mercy, Love, and Power!

In particular you asked:

Thus, if Unbelievers don't want The Cross, then why would they believe the
power of the "sign of tongues"?

You are making it too black and white. No, preaching alone won't save those who are perishing, but preaching and miracles both have a necessary role in God calling those who are to be saved. Also, don't assume that because someone hasn't become a believer yet they "don't want the Cross."

In John 4, when Jesus was asked to perform a healing, he commented in verse 48 that

“Unless you people see signs and wonders, you simply will not believe.”

Paul made it pretty clear in 1 Corinthians 2:1-5 that demonstration of Holy Spirit's power is preferable or even essential, as opposed to offering mere words or logical arguments.

And so it was with me, brothers and sisters. When I came to you, I did not come with eloquence or human wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. 2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling. 4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.

And even when there is a possibility of someone having enough experience of God to do better without further evidence, God doesn't necessarily write them off. Consider the well known incident with Thomas in John 20:24-29 and Jesus' comments thereafter:

24 Now Thomas (also known as Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”

But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”

26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”

28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

But does any of this matter and apply today? Yes, very much so to my family. My brother-in-law is now walking with God in part because the gift of tongues was presented to him right when he was starting to lean toward atheism in his youth. It showed him that there was more to the claims of Christians than mere claims themselves. Since he wanted the truth, it showed him a path he needed to investigate.

 

[wolfwint]

I'm aware of this information. However, scripture also reveals there are diversities of tongues and they manifest for various purposes. This could very well have been the case at Pentecost. Consider the fact that evangelism played no role in the experience relative to the Gentiles, Samaritans, and Ephesus disciples. (Acts 8, 10, 19) In each of those cases the experience confirmed the individuals received the indwelling of the Holy Ghost. In addition, Paul pointed out he prayed and sang in a language unknown to him.

Acts 8,10 and 19 you can use also as an proof/sign for the jews that the gospel is nt only gor thrm but also for the samaritians, the pagans and those who know only the baptism of John the Baptist.

 

[Wansvic]

Acts 8,10 and 19 you can use also as an proof/sign for the jews that the gospel is nt only gor thrm but also for the samaritians, the pagans and those who know only the baptism of John the Baptist.

Actually Acts 19 differs in that the experience can not be explained away as a one-time event that only happened to prove God's acceptance of specific groups of people. (Acts 2, 8, 10) It proves being indwelt with the Spirit with tongues is for all those who believe in Jesus. The Bible promises the Spirit to all believers, (John 7:38-39; Acts 11:15-17) and to all who ask. (Luke 11:13)

 

[Lamar]

Incorrect, whoever wants to know the truth for him/herself is responsible to prove it.

This is about as silly of a statement as I have ever seen. I am responsible to prove the truth of someone else's claim???

It simply doesn't work the other way practically or morally. To expect the someone else to prove it to you is a "the world owes me a living" kind of logic that demands others give what they don't have enough resources to give, nor do they owe to you even if they have it.

This is but mindless gobbledygook.

 

[Lamar]

I find your reasoning here childish.

My reasoning is quite sound.

It is the same reasoning we all use everyday.

If someone knocks on your door and claims to be a police officer and wants to speak to you. Would you not expect him to prove his claim of authority? Of course you would. Right....?

If someone claimed that the Earth was flat would you simply accept the claim as true???

If he presented scripture to back up his claim, would you accept that the Earth is flat???

Is his scriptures enough for you to ignore the error of his reasoning.

Presenting scripture as evidence of the validity of a ongoing event is childish.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Paul agrees!!! He prayed with the "Understanding", and also "in the Spirit". God's not a "One trick Pony"

You seem to have forgotten everything else which Paul said. The Pentecostal theory is that ALL will speak in tongues (sooner or later). But Paul already refuted that by asking a rhetorical question: "Do all speak in tongues?" What he meant was "Obviously not".

There are two other things that Paul said: (1) he would rather prophesy any day than speak in tongues and (2) he would rather speak 5 words of prophecy than 10,000 words in tongues. OUCH! All of that effectively cancels modern tongues. Furthermore modern tongues are NOT biblical "tongues" (translate glossais as "languages").

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

You seem to have forgotten everything else which Paul said.
The Pentecostal theory is that ALL will speak in tongues (sooner or later).

What pentecostal "Theory" is that??? People are gifted according to how the Holy SPirit wants to use them in various situations. "Tongues" wouldn't be useful, where "Gifs of Healings" are needed.

But Paul already refuted that by asking a rhetorical question: "Do all speak in tongues?" What he meant was "Obviously not".

And even though I have spoken in tongues for nigh onto 50 years I HAVE NEVER been burdened to deliver a message in a tongue public ally, so I'm one in the public context that "doesn't speak in tongues". Problem solved.

Personally I've been burdened to INTERPRET Tongues", and speak Prophetically on occasion, but NEVER to "Speak in tongues".

There are two other things that Paul said: (1) he would rather prophesy any day than speak in tongues and (2) he would rather speak 5 words of prophecy than 10,000 words in tongues.

OF course!! Speaking prophetically is MUCH MORE EFFICIENT in terms of disseminating information - Context, context context!!!! 1 Cor 14 deals with public meeting procedures.

The implied problem is one of discipline, where people in meetings were "Showing off" in their "Private tongues" ("My gift is better than yours"), and NOT because they were Burdened to speak in the meeting. IF a person is burdened to speak in a tongue in a meeting, The Holy Spirit will have already lined up somebody (maybe the same person) to Speak the interpretation.

OUCH! All of that effectively cancels modern tongues.

He also said "FORBID NOT" (1 Cor 14:39) which you apparently desire to do. Pentehostile paradigm in evidence.

Furthermore modern tongues are NOT biblical "tongues" (translate glossais as "languages").

In the Corinthian church, apparently the Tongues were NOT understood. Hoewever the Tongues were not criticized, only their application/use in meetings.

However, what has been reported from the field is:
>Tongues that NOBODY understands, accompanied by Interpretation (the most common in Pentecostal Churches). There was an interpreted message in our service yesterday.

>Tongues that ARE understood by individuals or groups, and sometimes accompanied by a matching Interpretation in the common tongue.

>Messages in the Common language, which are ALSO understood in one or more different languages by those hearing.

>And, of course Tongues spoken privately which is covered in 1 Car 14:4. You need to explain why self-edification is a BAD THING.

I always think of a "Hat trick" years ago in an Marion, Ohio FGBMFI dinner meeting:
There was utterance in a tongue.
The fellow to my left stood and began to interpret.
When he did, I was immediately burdened to interpret, and received the words to say (which is how interpretation works).
In mid message, the fellow on the Left stopped, and I immediately picked it up, and spoke the interpretation for 25-30 seconds, then my flow of words stopped, and so did I.
Then the fellow on my right immediately continued the interpretation to its conclusion.

Bottom line - The Holy Spirit Choreographs the manifestation of the gifts, so that one doesn't have to be concerned whether there's an Interpreter there before they speak what they're given.

AND, of course, Tongues, Prophesy, Word of Wisdom, Word of Knowledge, and Interpretation of tongues are essentially all the same gift, varying only in content. Same as Mat 10:19 when you're brought before magistrates or councils don't worry about what to say, because it'll be given to you as you need it.[/quote]

 

[presidente]

My reasoning is quite sound.

It is the same reasoning we all use everyday.

If someone knocks on your door and claims to be a police officer and wants to speak to you. Would you not expect him to prove his claim of authority? Of course you would. Right....?

If someone claimed that the Earth was flat would you simply accept the claim as true???

If he presented scripture to back up his claim, would you accept that the Earth is flat???

Is his scriptures enough for you to ignore the error of his reasoning.

Presenting scripture as evidence of the validity of a ongoing event is childish.

We do not know that spiritual gifts have ended. there are thousands if not millions who have experienced them, and books written about such experiences.

 

[wolfwint]

Actually Acts 19 differs in that the experience can not be explained away as a one-time event that only happened to prove God's acceptance of specific groups of people. (Acts 2, 8, 10) It proves being indwelt with the Spirit with tongues is for all those who believe in Jesus. The Bible promises the Spirit to all believers, (John 7:38-39; Acts 11:15-17) and to all who ask. (Luke 11:13)

No, i do not agree. The tongues in 10 and 19 proves the jews that the gospel salvation is for all. Till this the jews believed Jesus came for them alone as Messaja. While Acts 8 (no tongue speaking report), 10 and 19 proofed that the Holy Spirit/Salvation came for all.
Samaritians, Pagans and those who knew only the baptism of John the Baptist.
This is what the text says.
The teaching that every believer who receives the Holy Spirit is speaking in tongues is man made teaching. Not what God says!

 

[Wansvic]

No, i do not agree. The tongues in 10 and 19 proves the jews that the gospel salvation is for all. Till this the jews believed Jesus came for them alone as Messaja. While Acts 8 (no tongue speaking report), 10 and 19 proofed that the Holy Spirit/Salvation came for all.
Samaritians, Pagans and those who knew only the baptism of John the Baptist.
This is what the text says.
The teaching that every believer who receives the Holy Spirit is speaking in tongues is man made teaching. Not what God says!

If there was no discernable sign, how did the Samaritans know they had not received the Holy Ghost? (Acts 8) The other detailed conversion accounts reveal speaking in tongues was the sign that people were filled with the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:2-4, 33, 10:43-48)

It was already established that Jews were accepted in Acts 2. The significance of the account that happened 20+ years after Pentecost, is that it confirms all believers regardless of nationality must submit to water baptism in the name of Jesus and receive the Holy Ghost just as they did at Pentecost. (Acts 19:1-7)

 

[Lamar]

We do not know that spiritual gifts have ended. there are thousands if not millions who have experienced them, and books written about such experiences.

That's your response?

What about the space aliens, bigfoot and Loch Ness monsters?

Do you also accept the claims of the "thousands if not millions who have experienced these events and the books written about such experiences"?

Come on, is this really your reasoning?

 

[Jimbone]

Warning.

Before getting too worked up about modern day tongues or glossolalia remember this:

You are dealing with claims of a supernatural event, nothing more.

And all you will ever be referred to are claims of the event. There will be no evidence of the claims, just the claims themselves.

Remember: He who claims is he who proves.

Okay, well then prove that "He who claims is he who proves". If this is true then you will have no problem at all proving your claim, right?

 

[Lamar]

Okay, well then prove that "He who claims is he who proves". If this is true then you will have no problem at all proving your claim, right?

Agreed???

But that is obvious, what is your point?

 

[hornetguy]

IF a person is burdened to speak in a tongue in a meeting, The Holy Spirit will have already lined up somebody (maybe the same person) to Speak the interpretation.

I see nothing in scripture that indicates a person can speak in the assembly in a tongue, and interpret it himself....
My reading of scripture shows that it specifically implies that someone else has to interpret.... otherwise, the speaker is not to speak.

 

[ResidentAlien]

The thing about "unknown tongues" is (conveniently) there's no way to prove or disprove it. When tongues first became a big thing in the early 20th century, the belief was that tongues were human languages that had not been previously learned, but were supernaturally imparted. However, when missionaries set out to demonstrate it by traveling to foreign lands to preach the gospel in the native tongues of the people, they fell flat; no one understood a word they said. It wasn't long after this they retooled and tongues became an unknown or angelic tongue. No one could say otherwise because how could they?

To me this is the most clear and convincing evidence that ecstatic utterances are not the real thing.

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

I see nothing in scripture that indicates a person can speak in the assembly in a tongue, and interpret it himself....
My reading of scripture shows that it specifically implies that someone else has to interpret.... otherwise, the speaker is not to speak.

1 Cor 14:13

 

[hornetguy]

Got it.... I stand corrected. Just shows that no matter how many times you read something, there is value in re-reading...