Paul?

[Kojikun]

Okay I was like seconds away from posting this on bdf but that my common sense came back halfway through typing and I know this thread isnt the right thread for it but I know the people who hangout on this thread the best anyway I have always found Pauls teachings a little odd like "Really can it be that easy?" Than again I got scruples so I feel unworthy in everything I do but apparently im not alone and there are a number of people who not only think its odd but think hes a fake. Now I certainly dont want to believe that but I cant help but see they make some good points of course others who defend Paul do too and seeing how alot of the people who oppose him are apart of a Hebrew roots or similar movement I find the irony being these are the kind of people Paul consistently butted heads with (kind of a Pharisees lite with Jesus mixed in) now theyve made some claims like Paul condoning lying for the sake of the Church him compromising Jesus's teachings for his own him being all about him and the other of 12 Apostles not actually acknowledging him they also claim Revelations refer to him at a few points. Now I am at my mental limit and I dont think searching the net will help so could you all help debunk these claims? I wanted to go to people I trusted and not be thrown into a circle of logic again. God Bless

 

[Tinkerbell725]

The muslims call Paul a liar since he is a lawyer. Lol

We have to study all scriptures and validate scripture per scripture and not only focus on certain scriptures to support what we believe.

Look into the grace movement or hyper-dispensationalism. They view the Pauline epistles as foundational for the church.

Look also into dispensationalism to avoid hyperdispensationalism or the opposite extreme of it.

Dispensationalism makes things fall into place or less confusing. Paul begins to make sense if you rightly divide scriptures.

 

[Kojikun]

The muslims call Paul a liar since he is a lawyer. Lol

We have to study all scriptures and validate scripture per scripture and not only focus on certain scriptures to support what we believe.

Look into the grace movement or hyper-dispensationalism. They view the Pauline epistles as foundational for the church.

Look also into dispensationalism to avoid hyperdispensationalism or the opposite extreme of it.

Dispensationalism makes things fall into place or less confusing. Paul begins to make sense if you rightly divide scriptures.

Ah thank you for the info

 

[Subhumanoidal]

Okay I was like seconds away from posting this on bdf but that my common sense came back halfway through typing and I know this thread isnt the right thread for it but I know the people who hangout on this thread the best anyway I have always found Pauls teachings a little odd like "Really can it be that easy?" Than again I got scruples so I feel unworthy in everything I do but apparently im not alone and there are a number of people who not only think its odd but think hes a fake. Now I certainly dont want to believe that but I cant help but see they make some good points of course others who defend Paul do too and seeing how alot of the people who oppose him are apart of a Hebrew roots or similar movement I find the irony being these are the kind of people Paul consistently butted heads with (kind of a Pharisees lite with Jesus mixed in) now theyve made some claims like Paul condoning lying for the sake of the Church him compromising Jesus's teachings for his own him being all about him and the other of 12 Apostles not actually acknowledging him they also claim Revelations refer to him at a few points. Now I am at my mental limit and I dont think searching the net will help so could you all help debunk these claims? I wanted to go to people I trusted and not be thrown into a circle of logic again. God Bless

My issue with that notion is it's essentially saying "God approved of these lies being put in his only written communication to humanity".
Which, ironically, takes away most of the NT. Yet if God approves, then does that not invalidate the rest of the bible as well? Since the character of God would be disproven by his acceptance of lies in his own written transcript. It doesn't take a theologian to understand if Paul's books are lies, the entire NT is false. And that could also be enough to throw doubt on the OT as well, at that point.

 

[cinder]

Okay I was like seconds away from posting this on bdf but that my common sense came back halfway through typing and I know this thread isnt the right thread for it but I know the people who hangout on this thread the best anyway I have always found Pauls teachings a little odd like "Really can it be that easy?" Than again I got scruples so I feel unworthy in everything I do but apparently im not alone and there are a number of people who not only think its odd but think hes a fake. Now I certainly dont want to believe that but I cant help but see they make some good points of course others who defend Paul do too and seeing how alot of the people who oppose him are apart of a Hebrew roots or similar movement I find the irony being these are the kind of people Paul consistently butted heads with (kind of a Pharisees lite with Jesus mixed in) now theyve made some claims like Paul condoning lying for the sake of the Church him compromising Jesus's teachings for his own him being all about him and the other of 12 Apostles not actually acknowledging him they also claim Revelations refer to him at a few points. Now I am at my mental limit and I dont think searching the net will help so could you all help debunk these claims? I wanted to go to people I trusted and not be thrown into a circle of logic again. God Bless

Well let's see if we can cut through the rambling and disorganized thoughts here:

First let's build off subhumanoidal's point of invalidating the Bible: either we're going to trust the scripture to come from God and that he was big enough to be able to preserve them and keep them accurate to who he is and what he wants to say despite the limitations and liabilities of the human beings he used to record it, or we may as well throw it out now and then most of the rest of the debate doesn't matter.

So if we're going to continue the discussion we're going to accept the Bible as authoritative. That means that the accusers should have Biblical references for their claims and the defense should also have Biblical references; we can supplement those we what contemporary historical records exist.

As to both the points of Paul's teaching seeming odd / difficult / confusing and the apostles acknowledgement of Paul there are several references we can turn to, probably the best is 2 Peter 3:15-16 where Peter references Pau , his letters, and compares twisting Paul's letters to twisting scripture. The Bible also says that Paul was at the Acts 15 Jerusalem council and received a letter from them that he took back to some of the churches he planted (a bold claim to make in writing when there are people still alive who were there and would know if you're lying through your teeth about what happened). That whole people who were there are still alive and can contradict you argument should hold for most of Paul's letters and the NT since most of it was contemporary writing where people were familiar with the events that were talked about and would know if the author was lying.

Gotta finish this quick to get back to work but the other thing we see in scripture is that Paul is often opposed and has his words twisted by those who favor either legalism ( strict adherence to the outward commands of the law) or license (we'll be forgiven all our sins so sin doesn't matter anymore. That either camp attacks his writings in the modern day and tries to twist his words should not surprise us, but we already know from his recorded experiences and writings that the twisting of his words isn't what he meant at all.

 

[Deade]

Paul’s unique way of teaching and letter writing has confused a lot of people and led to many error-ridden beliefs. Paul had a tendency to talk all around a subject making many references on how to deal with it. But keep in mind the subject while reading his words. Too many want to take what he applied to one thing and apply it to everything, which he never intended.

Dead to Sin, Alive to God

Paul wants us to have a healthy approach to sin. How we should view and conduct ourselves when dealing with it.

Romans 6:1-14: “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.”

 

[kinda]

Okay I was like seconds away from posting this on bdf but that my common sense came back halfway through typing and I know this thread isnt the right thread for it but I know the people who hangout on this thread the best anyway I have always found Pauls teachings a little odd like "Really can it be that easy?" Than again I got scruples so I feel unworthy in everything I do but apparently im not alone and there are a number of people who not only think its odd but think hes a fake. Now I certainly dont want to believe that but I cant help but see they make some good points of course others who defend Paul do too and seeing how alot of the people who oppose him are apart of a Hebrew roots or similar movement I find the irony being these are the kind of people Paul consistently butted heads with (kind of a Pharisees lite with Jesus mixed in) now theyve made some claims like Paul condoning lying for the sake of the Church him compromising Jesus's teachings for his own him being all about him and the other of 12 Apostles not actually acknowledging him they also claim Revelations refer to him at a few points. Now I am at my mental limit and I dont think searching the net will help so could you all help debunk these claims? I wanted to go to people I trusted and not be thrown into a circle of logic again. God Bless

Take a deep breath. Count to 10 slowly.

O.k., this is my best efforts for answering that paragraph.

You sound confused. Why give an ear to contradictory views, when it's sending you to your "mental limit"? I used to talk to the Jehovah Witnesses/Watch Tower society on the sidewalk, but I stopped. I really try to give people a chance to state their views, but if their view isn't inlined with my belief, why would I constantly listen to it? Not gonna do it.

Let people have a different view, live a different life, and different culture. Jesus let Judas hang himself, but gave him plenty of opportunity to believe the truth. If people don't want to hear the Christian Gospel, let them be. It's their choice. People have a right to deny Christ and the Bible. I don't think it's a wise decision, but God let's us choose. Our job (as believers) is to be a good witness and tell about the good news, not force people to believe a certain way. Catholics forced people to believe that only their religion was right and fed people to the lions, if you didn't agree. This is not how Jesus spread the good news. He served others to the point of death, not forced people to convert.

Mathew 10:14
If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet

Amen!

 

[Poinsetta]

Take a deep breath. Count to 10 slowly.

O.k., this is my best efforts for answering that paragraph.

You sound confused. Why give an ear to contradictory views, when it's sending you to your "mental limit"? I used to talk to the Jehovah Witnesses/Watch Tower society on the sidewalk, but I stopped. I really try to give people a chance to state their views, but if their view isn't inlined with my belief, why would I constantly listen to it? Not gonna do it.

Let people have a different view, live a different life, and different culture. Jesus let Judas hang himself, but gave him plenty of opportunity to believe the truth. If people don't want to hear the Christian Gospel, let them be. It's their choice. People have a right to deny Christ and the Bible. I don't think it's a wise decision, but God let's us choose. Our job (as believers) is to be a good witness and tell about the good news, not force people to believe a certain way. Catholics forced people to believe that only their religion was right and fed people to the lions, if you didn't agree. This is not how Jesus spread the good news. He served others to the point of death, not forced people to convert.

Mathew 10:14
If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet

Amen!

Awww because its true, i wanna leave town 😒

 

[Kojikun]

Take a deep breath. Count to 10 slowly.

O.k., this is my best efforts for answering that paragraph.

You sound confused. Why give an ear to contradictory views, when it's sending you to your "mental limit"? I used to talk to the Jehovah Witnesses/Watch Tower society on the sidewalk, but I stopped. I really try to give people a chance to state their views, but if their view isn't inlined with my belief, why would I constantly listen to it? Not gonna do it.

Let people have a different view, live a different life, and different culture. Jesus let Judas hang himself, but gave him plenty of opportunity to believe the truth. If people don't want to hear the Christian Gospel, let them be. It's their choice. People have a right to deny Christ and the Bible. I don't think it's a wise decision, but God let's us choose. Our job (as believers) is to be a good witness and tell about the good news, not force people to believe a certain way. Catholics forced people to believe that only their religion was right and fed people to the lions, if you didn't agree. This is not how Jesus spread the good news. He served others to the point of death, not forced people to convert.

Mathew 10:14
If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet

Amen!

Yeah I have Autism and recently developed Scrupulosity a faith based doubting Ocd and with my anxiety and depression already not to mention my other Ocd I get mentally drained fast im afraid

 

[kinda]

Yeah I have Autism and recently developed Scrupulosity a faith based doubting Ocd and with my anxiety and depression already not to mention my other Ocd I get mentally drained fast im afraid

 

[TabinRivCA]

Paul, once Saul, used to kill Christians, For the Lord to appear to him, blind him and show Paul directly His Lordship, shows God had a distinct purpose for him. Anything that varies from the gospel, contradicts or is added to it is not of God. It's good to ask these things, God bless.

 

[Deade]

Take a deep breath. Count to 10 slowly.

O.k., this is my best efforts for answering that paragraph.

You sound confused. Why give an ear to contradictory views, when it's sending you to your "mental limit"? I used to talk to the Jehovah Witnesses/Watch Tower society on the sidewalk, but I stopped. I really try to give people a chance to state their views, but if their view isn't inlined with my belief, why would I constantly listen to it? Not gonna do it.

Let people have a different view, live a different life, and different culture. Jesus let Judas hang himself, but gave him plenty of opportunity to believe the truth. If people don't want to hear the Christian Gospel, let them be. It's their choice. People have a right to deny Christ and the Bible. I don't think it's a wise decision, but God let's us choose. Our job (as believers) is to be a good witness and tell about the good news, not force people to believe a certain way. Catholics forced people to believe that only their religion was right and fed people to the lions, if you didn't agree. This is not how Jesus spread the good news. He served others to the point of death, not forced people to convert.

Mathew 10:14
If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet

Amen!

Finally, someone gets it. God is not trying to save the whole world at this time. He wants the whole world to hear of His coming kingdom. That is the gospel of Jesus, not the gospel about Jesus that most are peddling. The gospel is to be spread for a witness.

Matt. 24:14 "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

That is why we have to shake the dust off our feet when not received.

 

[pomeranian]

I'm not sure if I should comment because some members on this site are very... for lack of a better word cemented. Please understand this is just my opinion for you to ponder and release. Paul was no different then you or I, he was a man burdened with a Holy task, not unlike Moses. Anyone attempting to share the message that GOD has given them with another is under a great burden. Moses wrote the Torah and for all intents and purposes he did his best to enlightened his people with the message GOD gave him as he understood it. Moses too was human and there was misinterpretations and personal opinions in his writings. One scriptural example of this is of course Moses view on divorce.
Matthew 19: 8 He said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.”
I have found the best way to look at scripture of any kind is to ask yourself; is this what Jesus would have said, condoned or expressed. Jesus is the ultimate WORD of GOD and the only man whoever lived that Satan could not influence. Prayer for the Holy Spirit to guide you is also very helpful for me. GOD bless you and don't let Paul's humanity give root to mistrust in GOD's word.

 

[Kojikun]

I'm not sure if I should comment because some members on this site are very... for lack of a better word cemented. Please understand this is just my opinion for you to ponder and release. Paul was no different then you or I, he was a man burdened with a Holy task, not unlike Moses. Anyone attempting to share the message that GOD has given them with another is under a great burden. Moses wrote the Torah and for all intents and purposes he did his best to enlightened his people with the message GOD gave him as he understood it. Moses too was human and there was misinterpretations and personal opinions in his writings. One scriptural example of this is of course Moses view on divorce.
Matthew 19: 8 He said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.”
I have found the best way to look at scripture of any kind is to ask yourself; is this what Jesus would have said, condoned or expressed. Jesus is the ultimate WORD of GOD and the only man whoever lived that Satan could not influence. Prayer for the Holy Spirit to guide you is also very helpful for me. GOD bless you and don't let Paul's humanity give root to mistrust in GOD's word.

Okay I understand your trying to do good here but im afraid more questions have opposite effect on me as I have the doubting disease "Scrupilosty"....so now im back to confused...*sigh* 😞

 

[Adstar]

Hello Kojikun i love the writings of Paul and yes salvation by believing Jesus and trusting in the Atonement He secured is that easy.. Yes lots of people feel unworthy and they are correct because Everybody is unworthy.. No one is good enough to justify their entry into eternity with God.. It does not matter if a person has 50 sins or if a person has 50,000 sins Everyone needs their sins forgiven and that is the gift offered through Jesus.. So if both sinners accept the gift of Atonement then both will have all their sins forgiven..

As for Paul i am the type of person who likes to deal with specific examples.. I have heard a lot of false allegations from Hebrew roots and muslims against Paul and none of them have ever undermined my confidence that Paul was an inspired messenger of God..

 

[pomeranian]

Okay I understand your trying to do good here but im afraid more questions have opposite effect on me as I have the doubting disease "Scrupilosty"....so now im back to confused...*sigh* 😞

When you have confusion it means you are of 2 minds. GOD is not of 2 minds so lets work at removing confusion.
Deuteronomy 9: 10 And the Lord gave me the two tablets of stone written with the finger of God, and on them were all the words that the Lord had spoken with you on the mountain out of the midst of the fire on the day of the assembly.

The 10 Commandments were written by GOD, they are GOD's law and should be taught to the children and written on the heart. Jesus took GOD's 10 Commandments and in essence broke them down to 2
Matthew 22:36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

If anything written in scripture does not ahere to GOD's Laws it is not of GOD period end of story. Pray for the Holy Spirits guidance once you have been blessed with the Holy Spirit of GOD confusion and doubt no longer exist. LOVE in our Lord Jesus has always been and will always be the answer for all those who know him.

 

[Smooth]

Okay I was like seconds away from posting this on bdf but that my common sense came back halfway through typing and I know this thread isnt the right thread for it but I know the people who hangout on this thread the best anyway I have always found Pauls teachings a little odd like "Really can it be that easy?" Than again I got scruples so I feel unworthy in everything I do but apparently im not alone and there are a number of people who not only think its odd but think hes a fake. Now I certainly dont want to believe that but I cant help but see they make some good points of course others who defend Paul do too and seeing how alot of the people who oppose him are apart of a Hebrew roots or similar movement I find the irony being these are the kind of people Paul consistently butted heads with (kind of a Pharisees lite with Jesus mixed in) now theyve made some claims like Paul condoning lying for the sake of the Church him compromising Jesus's teachings for his own him being all about him and the other of 12 Apostles not actually acknowledging him they also claim Revelations refer to him at a few points. Now I am at my mental limit and I dont think searching the net will help so could you all help debunk these claims? I wanted to go to people I trusted and not be thrown into a circle of logic again. God Bless

“I feel unworthy in everything”
You are a child of the living God. You are a friend and an heir to the King of kings and Lord of lords. Humbleness and humility are godly virtues but I encourage you to hold your head high knowing you are loved, adored and cherished. ❤️

 

[Deade]

Sin Nature

Paul still felt the pull of his sinful nature:

Romans 7:21-25: “I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.”

Paul was thanking God that he was already delivered his body of death. It was a done work through Christ on the cross.

Paul also said that if we seek the ways of the Spirit, we are not condemned:

Romans 8:1: “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”

Paul concludes:

Romans 8:12-17: “Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.”

 

[zeroturbulence]

2 Timothy 2:23 NIV:
Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels.

Titus 3:9 NIV:
But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless.