Paul and Moses, whats wrong?

[Blik]

Can you rephrase it?

All scripture comes from God, and we need to know the characteristics of God as we read his word. God is different from humans and a major difference is that time for God is different from times for us. God lives in eternal time, time for us happens in sequence. God uses that we understand time in a different way, but for God, everything either is or isn't so.

In the case of Moses and Paul, it is always so that law is spiritual yet God used commands of the flesh for a time to help people understand the spiritual aspects of the law. That changed when Christ put the law in our hearts, and we say the law changed. But in God's eyes everything is eternal, not changed with time. God simply used our understanding of time to explain law in a different way.

We need to see the eternal of God in scripture as we read His word.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

[

All scripture comes from God, and we need to know the characteristics of God as we read his word. God is different from humans and a major difference is that time for God is different from times for us. God lives in eternal time, time for us happens in sequence. God uses that we understand time in a different way, but for God, everything either is or isn't so.

In the case of Moses and Paul, it is always so that law is spiritual yet God used commands of the flesh for a time to help people understand the spiritual aspects of the law. That changed when Christ put the law in our hearts, and we say the law changed. But in God's eyes everything is eternal, not changed with time. God simply used our understanding of time to explain law in a different way.

We need to see the eternal of God in scripture as we read His word.

“we need to know the characteristics of God as we read his word. “

“For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭4:22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:18‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Aaron56]

All scripture comes from God, and we need to know the characteristics of God as we read his word. God is different from humans and a major difference is that time for God is different from times for us. God lives in eternal time, time for us happens in sequence. God uses that we understand time in a different way, but for God, everything either is or isn't so.

In the case of Moses and Paul, it is always so that law is spiritual yet God used commands of the flesh for a time to help people understand the spiritual aspects of the law. That changed when Christ put the law in our hearts, and we say the law changed. But in God's eyes everything is eternal, not changed with time. God simply used our understanding of time to explain law in a different way.

We need to see the eternal of God in scripture as we read His word.

The law is not eternal, having no beginning and end. It was added because of transgressions.

 

[Evmur]

I want to open up a discussion about how Paul seems to imply teaching the dietary laws as binding is from a deceiving spirit.

This strikes me as very odd, as we know the law even if not applicable to us today, was not given by satan, but by God Himself.
This same Paul calls the law "Holy" in other places of the Bible, but in this particular verse (and a few similar ones) he seems to be really against people who insist on obeying the law of Moses.

Certainly obeying God's laws is not sinful, if not done for the reason of acquiring righteousness?

The verses in question are:

1 Timothy 4:1-5
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.
They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.
For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.

Discuss. Have I misunderstood the verse? Have you misunderstood the verse? How could something God gave be from a deceiving spirit if taught today?

My only guess is: Because we are in a new covenant and you cannot mix the two, and one could argue for animal sacrifices today as well based on the Torah, and obviously we know that would be a complete trampling on the blood of Jesus. What do you think of my guess? Agree? Disagree? Why?

The deception is that by abstaining we attain to salvation or holiness of life.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The law is not eternal, having no beginning and end. It was added because of transgressions.

amen

“Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:19‬ ‭

“He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭19:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Blik]

The law is not eternal, having no beginning and end. It was added because of transgressions.

The garden of Eden contained the tree of knowledge. The tree of knowledge contained the law, for the law tells us what is sin. Even though they had not partaken of it, it existed in the tree.

 

[Aaron56]

The garden of Eden contained the tree of knowledge. The tree of knowledge contained the law, for the law tells us what is sin. Even though they had not partaken of it, it existed in the tree.

The record of that is where? Sounds like a Jewish fable.

 

[Blik]

[


“we need to know the characteristics of God as we read his word. “

“For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭4:22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:18‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It is a shame that all these truths are read by many people to mean that God wants us to live in rebellion to the law. It is Paul who wrote most of these things to us, few read what Paul says about obedience to law.

The Lord himself told us that if you love me you will keep my commandments.

Christ as a man spent three years teaching, and although God gave Christ as our savior from our sins, the teaching that Christ did in those three years was not about his mission for us, but teaching us how to live for him in this life.

 

[Blik]

The record of that is where? Sounds like a Jewish fable.

We are told all about the tree of knowledge and the garden of Eden in Genesis.

I read of Jews in scripture but I had no idea they had fables like the Romans had about their idols.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

It is a shame that all these truths are read by many people to mean that God wants us to live in rebellion to the law. It is Paul who wrote most of these things to us, few read what Paul says about obedience to law.

The Lord himself told us that if you love me you will keep my commandments.

Christ as a man spent three years teaching, and although God gave Christ as our savior from our sins, the teaching that Christ did in those three years was not about his mission for us, but teaching us how to live for him in this life.

no one said anything about rebellion to anything. Just talking about what the Bible says about Moses law and what it says about the gospel

but I agree it’s a shame when Christians try to reject the gospel and hold to a law that for wicked and Unrepentant sinners even more of a shame when they try to apply it to others

to be clear what Jesus said is Gods law not what Moses said

it’s what Jesus said that we’re supposed to believe and live by.

 

[Isaskar]

It is a shame that all these truths are read by many people to mean that God wants us to live in rebellion to the law. It is Paul who wrote most of these things to us, few read what Paul says about obedience to law.

The Lord himself told us that if you love me you will keep my commandments.

Christ as a man spent three years teaching, and although God gave Christ as our savior from our sins, the teaching that Christ did in those three years was not about his mission for us, but teaching us how to live for him in this life.

I think its important to notice the difference between the law of MOSES and the law of Christ.

We are definitely under the law of Christ, anyone who says otherwise is a false teacher, period.

But we are not under the law of Moses, and there is a difference. Even in the sermon of the mount, Jesus says: You have heard it was said...... and quotes the law, such as eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, and then proceeds to say: but I say unto you.....

 

[Aaron56]

We are told all about the tree of knowledge and the garden of Eden in Genesis.

I read of Jews in scripture but I had no idea they had fables like the Romans had about their idols.

You mean the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil"?

 

[Nehemiah6]

The garden of Eden contained the tree of knowledge. The tree of knowledge contained the law, for the law tells us what is sin.

You seem to be thoroughly confused. The tree of the knowledge OF GOOD AND EVIL did not contain the Law. We do not know exactly what that fruit was, but it was not an apple. However, the Law was given about 2,500 years after the Fall, and the Bible says that there was no Law between Adam and Moses: For until the Law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no Law. (Rom 5:13)

 

[Blik]

I think its important to notice the difference between the law of MOSES and the law of Christ.

We are definitely under the law of Christ, anyone who says otherwise is a false teacher, period.

But we are not under the law of Moses, and there is a difference. Even in the sermon of the mount, Jesus says: You have heard it was said...... and quotes the law, such as eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, and then proceeds to say: but I say unto you.....

This explains well what I think about the law. The law of Moses was given to us by God, and we are to listen to it, but it was improved by Christ and we need to understand that improvement.

The law as God gave it was always a spiritual law, for God is spirit, but man as Moses knew man couldn't understand the spirit, the law was given as rules in stone. Was not flexible. To not work on Sabbath held, even if that meant having a hard heart toward someone desperately needing your work. The law of love, then, the supreme law was disobeyed because of the law in stone. Christ brought the law to our hearts, and the law of love reined supreme in man.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I think its important to notice the difference between the law of MOSES and the law of Christ.

We are definitely under the law of Christ, anyone who says otherwise is a false teacher, period.

But we are not under the law of Moses, and there is a difference. Even in the sermon of the mount, Jesus says: You have heard it was said...... and quotes the law, such as eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, and then proceeds to say: but I say unto you.....

exactly its Christs word in the gospel the ones he taught and preached that is Christian law. We have to hear and believe the gospel there’s no other way. We can’t ignore what Christ taught it is forever true and the same.

when we go to our eternal judgement it’s going to be cording to what Christ said not what Moses said. And Christs word is far better and for a whole different purpose our salvstion.

 

[Blik]

You seem to be thoroughly confused. The tree of the knowledge OF GOOD AND EVIL did not contain the Law. We do not know exactly what that fruit was, but it was not an apple. However, the Law was given about 2,500 years after the Fall, and the Bible says that there was no Law between Adam and Moses: For until the Law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no Law. (Rom 5:13)

We are given the law to explain sin. You say Adam and Eve knew sin when they disobeyed. Explain how they could know sin without any way of knowing sin, for the law, we are told, is the way.

I would appreciate it if you would keep your posts to scripture and not to murder as Christ explains murder. It is not that you think I am "confused" as you accuse, but you think what I say is wrong. There is a BIG difference.

 

[Nehemiah6]

We are given the law to explain sin. You say Adam and Eve knew sin when they disobeyed. Explain how they could know sin without any way of knowing sin, for the law, we are told, is the way.

I did not say that Adam and Eve "knew sin" when they disobeyed. I did say that that tree was not simply "the tree of knowledge". It was "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil". And there was no Law of Moses in that tree or in its fruit.

Adam and Eve did not need to know anything other than the fact that DISOBEDIENCE TO GOD HAD VERY SERIOUS CONSEQUENCES. The consequences did not need to be explained or spelled out, and neither were they explained. They were simply stated as "you shall die".

This would be just like a bylaw which said that the consequences for speeding within a certain zone would be a penalty of $100. You could guess as to the reasons, but the reasons did not have to be posted on the road or the highway. And that is exactly what happened in Eden. Even death was not explained, since the point was simply obedience or disobedience.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

They invited sin and death to be part of mans experience

“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

but man didn’t know how to define sin and righteousness so later as you say correctly the law was given

“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

because it’s only when we know we’re sinners like everyone else like all the world that we would do this

“Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:14-15‬ ‭

 

[Blik]

I did not say that Adam and Eve "knew sin" when they disobeyed. I did say that that tree was not simply "the tree of knowledge". It was "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil". And there was no Law of Moses in that tree or in its fruit.

Adam and Eve did not need to know anything other than the fact that DISOBEDIENCE TO GOD HAD VERY SERIOUS CONSEQUENCES. The consequences did not need to be explained or spelled out, and neither were they explained. They were simply stated as "you shall die".

This would be just like a bylaw which said that the consequences for speeding within a certain zone would be a penalty of $100. You could guess as to the reasons, but the reasons did not have to be posted on the road or the highway. And that is exactly what happened in Eden. Even death was not explained, since the point was simply obedience or disobedience.

The earth was thickly populated by the time of Moses, it had been lived in for about 2,500 years. Yet you say there was no law in the world until Moses!

Cain had been punished for breaking the law, Cain was before Moses. To do evil is to sin, and evil was in the world those 2,500 years, Paul tells us in Romans 7: I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law.

You can go on and on against the holy law that is part of the spirit of God, not the law of Moses but the true law, but it has great power to do good that it greater than any of your words against it.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The earth was thickly populated by the time of Moses, it had been lived in for about 2,500 years. Yet you say there was no law in the world until Moses!

Cain had been punished for breaking the law, Cain was before Moses. To do evil is to sin, and evil was in the world those 2,500 years, Paul tells us in Romans 7: I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law.

You can go on and on against the holy law that is part of the spirit of God, not the law of Moses but the true law, but it has great power to do good that it greater than any of your words against it.

“Yet you say there was no law in the world until Moses!”

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬