OSAS= House Built on Sand

[UnderGrace]

How do you get eternal life without believing?

Believing is how you access the grace of God that does the saving. Stop believing and you lose access to the grace of God in salvation.



That person is in contemptuous unbelief. Remember, to believe in the sacrifice of Christ is to trust in the sacrifice of Christ, not just believe that it's real. The person who willfully sins after being saved is hardly demonstrating trust in the sacrifice for salvation from sin and it's eternal penalty. They are trampling on the blood of the covenant by which they were sanctified. They will lose the benefit of the sacrifice they are trampling on and have nothing left to look forward to but to be destroyed as an enemy of God at Christ's coming.



Staying saved is about continuing to trust in the sacrifice of Jesus for the payment of your sins to your last dying breath. It's not new trust, it's not additional trust. It's the trust you started out with on day one and it must continue to the very end for the sacrifice you are trusting in to be applied to you to the very end. Stop trusting in it and it stops being applied to you for the forgiveness of your sins.

The letter written to Hebrews teaches opposite to what you have written here.

As well, keeping yourself saved requires perfection which you do not have.

In John 3:16 you would do well to know that "whoever believes" is a nominative present participle portraying a single moment of believing and not a continuous one.
Meaning eternal life is immediately received when one believes in the Christ as Saviour.

As well, according to scripture a continuous and perfect state of believing in Christ is not possible in our fallen state, since this would necessitate sinless perfection. Every sin that a believer commits is reflective of some degree of unbelief.

Therefore, you have placed yourself in an impossible position of attaining salvation/eternal life based on your own imperfect ability to maintain belief perfectly.

And you have made belief an ongoing work which is contrary to the gospel of grace.

 

[UnderGrace]

Like Abraham, the father of faith, the footprints of justifying faith are your works of obedience.

That was the old covenant.
Even he needed a saviour.

 

[Ralph-]

'Once saved always saved' people keep forgetting that the parable of the Prodigal son can't be used to show that you can't lose your salvation. According to their own doctrine, because he left, he was never really saved to begin with, yet they use his leaving and coming back to show you can't lose your salvation and will always remain a son.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

It’s us by the Spirit obeying the truth.

7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. Galatians 6:7-8


again


13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:13

• if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8

• but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,

JPT

I think you are saying that we keep HIS commandments because we abide In HIM and HE has equipped us to keep HIS commandments so then we are In agreement If this Is what you are saying.

JESUS Is the vine and we are the branches receiving sustenance from the vine and displaying spiritual fruit.

We can’t keep the commandments perfectly In our own strength.

Glory to GOD alone.

 

[Ralph-]

The letter written to Hebrews teaches opposite to what you have written here.

That's funny because that's exactly where it comes from.

As well, keeping yourself saved requires perfection which you do not have.

How is continuing to believe equal to perfection????

In John 3:16 you would do well to know that "whoever believes" is a nominative present participle portraying a single moment of believing and not a continuous one.
Meaning eternal life is immediately received when one believes in the Christ as Saviour.

Yes, the believer receives eternal life the instant he believes. This is not in debate. What is in debate is whether or not you have to keep believing, and if you're going to keep believing, so you can continue to have access to God's eternal life.

As well, according to scripture a continuous and perfect state of believing in Christ is not possible in our fallen state, since this would necessitate sinless perfection. Every sin that a believer commits is reflective of some degree of unbelief.

There are sins committed because of a lack of trust in Christ's help in daily life. And then there is the whole different matter of sins committed because of a lack of trust in Christ's sacrifice to forgive you and keep you clean before the Father. It is the end of your faith in Christ's forgiveness that causes you to forfeit the salvation you have, not the lack of your faith in whether he will protect and help you in this life or not.

Therefore, you have placed yourself in an impossible position of attaining salvation/eternal life based on your own imperfect ability to maintain belief perfectly.

I can only believe with God's help. Even if believing were all up to me without God's help who told you that believing is me trying to earn my own salvation???? Do you have chapter and verse for this? You show me where that is in the Bible and I will show you where believing is exactly the thing you do to be justified/saved. Believing is not among the works that Paul said can not justify. How did you come to the conclusion that believing is also on the side of the things that constitute the works gospel that cannot save?

And you have made belief an ongoing work which is contrary to the gospel of grace.

Trust me on this, unbelievers and ex-believers will NOT be saved when Christ returns. No unbeliever gets to enter into the kingdom when he returns. You have to be a believer when he comes back to enter into the kingdom. That's why you must continue to believe to the very end to be saved in the very end at his coming.

 

[justpassinthrough]

I note in Luke 15 that it's not just "someone" going after that which was lost. In the case of the sheep, it was the shepherd. In the case of the coin, it was the woman. In the case of the son, it was the father who waited earnestly for his return.

The shepherd, the woman, the father didn't send another to search or watch.

And none of the examples support your assertion of "eternal death" because all were restored.

Jesus teaches His disciples what it takes to restore a person who wanders away and becomes lost: Repentance.

A Christian who wanders away from the truth, from the Lord, has become lost.


Very simple.


Is someone who is lost, facing eternal life or eternal death?



There is nothing hidden, it's all right here for all to see.


4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

• likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

A Christian who becomes lost is a sinner in need of repentance: No longer justified [righteous before God]



Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

• will save a soul from death

A Christian who becomes lost is in danger of eternal death unless he repents.

A Christian who is in a "lost" state, is not reconciled to God, and is no longer justified: They are lost.




JPT

 

[UnderGrace]

Jesus teaches His disciples what it takes to restore a person who wanders away and becomes lost: Repentance.

A Christian who wanders away from the truth, from the Lord, has become lost.


Very simple.


Is someone who is lost, facing eternal life or eternal death?



There is nothing hidden, it's all right here for all to see.


4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

• likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

A Christian who becomes lost is a sinner in need of repentance: No longer justified [righteous before God]



Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

• will save a soul from death

A Christian who becomes lost is in danger of eternal death unless he repents.

A Christian who is in a "lost" state, is not reconciled to God, and is no longer justified: They are lost.




JPT

So then someone is no longer justified has their sins imputed back to them, and the judgement and decree of God that the person was declared innocent and the payment was paid in full is now overturned.

So now you have made the Judge a liar because He stated the person was justified when He said the debt was paid in full.

Your only choice is to believe the debt was not paid in full, in which case we could not use the word justified, the scripture would have to say quasi-justified and it does not.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Meaning eternal life is immediately received when one believes in the Christ as Saviour.

That doesn't mean that someone forever enters into unending life - the race doesn't end at the starting line - it means they have received the surety, or down payment, that guarantees they will receive the full inheritance if they continue in the faith.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

So then someone is no longer justified has their sins imputed back to them, and the judgement and decree of God that the person was declared innocent and the payment was paid in full is now overturned.

So now you have made the Judge a liar because He stated the person was justified when He said the debt was paid in full.

Your only choice is to believe the debt was not paid in full, in which case we could not use the word justified, the scripture would have to say quasi-justified and it does not.

That's not the way the covenant works. Believers don't become unjustified when they sin. Believers become unjustified when they become unbelievers, break the covenant and abandon the faith.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

How is continuing to believe equal to perfection????

I asked essentially the same thing and was given the non-answer that Jesus was perfect.

 

[UnderGrace]

I asked essentially the same thing and was given the non-answer that Jesus was perfect.

It was an excellent answer, Jesus believed perfectly something you and I will never do.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

It was an excellent answer, Jesus believed perfectly something you and I will never do.

Which (i.e., his perfect obedience) makes our justification and redemption possible despite our having imperfect faith.

 

[UnderGrace]

That's not the way the covenant works. Believers don't become unjustified when they sin. Believers become unjustified when they become unbelievers, break the covenant and abandon the faith.

That was the old covenant, we have a new covenant with a new Adam and the covenant cannot be broken.

When we are born from above we have accepted payment for the fine (justified) and the payment is irrevocable. That is what justified is, paid in full.
We may have the will to reject Christ but we do not have the choice.
The decree of the judge is final, otherwise you make him a liar.

 

[UnderGrace]

Which (i.e., his perfect obedience) makes our justification and redemption possible despite our having imperfect faith.

Yes I agree so far.

Although saving faith ( which has a very particular point of belief upon the death and resurrection of Jesus as a personal act for us) which secures our salvation, and then the walk of faith thereafter is learning about God and serving Him.

The walk of faith is not how we are justified.

 

[Ralph-]

So then someone is no longer justified has their sins imputed back to them, and the judgement and decree of God that the person was declared innocent and the payment was paid in full is now overturned.

So now you have made the Judge a liar because He stated the person was justified when He said the debt was paid in full.

Your only choice is to believe the debt was not paid in full, in which case we could not use the word justified, the scripture would have to say quasi-justified and it does not.

Who told you that you can not become unjustified after you have been justified? Who said you can not become guilty again after you have been forgiven? Do you have chapter and verse for this? Here is chapter and verse where Jesus himself said the Father will make the forgiven person accountable for his debt all over again in the kingdom of heaven. Just read the emboldened parts, then read whatever you want in between if you think I'm wrong about this:


23“For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves. 24“When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25“But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.26“So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.’ 27“And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt. 28“But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay back what you owe.’ 29“So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you.’ 30“But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed. 31“So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened. 32“Then summoning him, his lord said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33‘Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34“And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35“My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.” - Matthew 18:23-35

See it? The debt really was forgiven, but then it was reinstated. This is how it is in the kingdom of heaven. This is what Jesus said his Father will do to you and I. How does that even remotely resemble a 'once saved always saved' doctrine? It doesn't, of course. The way you stay forgiven is stay in God's forgiveness. The presently believing person is in God's forgiveness. The person who stops believing removes himself from God's forgiveness.

 

[Ralph-]

The decree of the judge is final, otherwise you make him a liar.

If that's true then Jesus made his Father a liar.

 

[UnderGrace]

That's funny because that's exactly where it comes from.



How is continuing to believe equal to perfection????



Yes, the believer receives eternal life the instant he believes. This is not in debate. What is in debate is whether or not you have to keep believing, and if you're going to keep believing, so you can continue to have access to God's eternal life.



There are sins committed because of a lack of trust in Christ's help in daily life. And then there is the whole different matter of sins committed because of a lack of trust in Christ's sacrifice to forgive you and keep you clean before the Father. It is the end of your faith in Christ's forgiveness that causes you to forfeit the salvation you have, not the lack of your faith in whether he will protect and help you in this life or not.



I can only believe with God's help. Even if believing were all up to me without God's help who told you that believing is me trying to earn my own salvation???? Do you have chapter and verse for this? You show me where that is in the Bible and I will show you where believing is exactly the thing you do to be justified/saved. Believing is not among the works that Paul said can not justify. How did you come to the conclusion that believing is also on the side of the things that constitute the works gospel that cannot save?




Trust me on this, unbelievers and ex-believers will NOT be saved when Christ returns. No unbeliever gets to enter into the kingdom when he returns. You have to be a believer when he comes back to enter into the kingdom. That's why you must continue to believe to the very end to be saved in the very end at his coming.

-Yes it comes from a badly understood Hebrews.

-A continuous state of believing or perfect believing is not possible. We would have to be Jesus to achieve this, when you sin that is reflective of your lack of perfection and perfect belief. It is an illusion to think we believe perfectly and the is God's holy standard. That is why you can never give me how much unbelief and for what length of time causes a loss of salvation

-You have stated repeatedly that one must continue to believe to be saved, it is you who should be providing scripture. Because you have made ongoing belief necessary for salvation it is a work, a work that has to be done perfectly to be acceptable by God

-If you need Gods help to believe then how can it be necessary for salvation unless you believe like Calvinists that we cannot believe without God's intervening Grace

-One other thing Ralphie when I say believer I am not using the word like you as a state of being of the person, but rather as the status conferred by God. I will now say the "justified" since scripture is very clear that one cannot be unjustified unless you prefer redesign God to be untrustworthy God.

You know you want to believe you are eternally secure Ralphie I sense it. Keep your eyes on Jesus not churchianity, that is a mess.
His name is Faithful and True.

 

[UnderGrace]

If that's true then Jesus made his Father a liar.

How so?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

That was the old covenant, we have a new covenant with a new Adam and the covenant cannot be broken.

When we are born from above we have accepted payment for the fine (justified) and the payment is irrevocable. That is what justified is, paid in full.
We may have the will to reject Christ but we do not have the choice.
The decree of the judge is final, otherwise you make him a liar.

Jesus spent 3.5 years with his disciples making the terms of the covenant he made with them very clear. There is unconditional forgiveness of sin, but abiding in that grace and salvation is by no means unconditional.

 

[OstrichSmiling]

The is only one Gospel.

The Gospel of the kingdom of God.

The Gospel of God’s grace.



JPT

Your putting words into peoples posts as you do at other sites where I remember you from confirms who you are.
Thank you for that.