Once saved always saved?

[AndrewMorgan]

How would we define logic? Would true logic lead a man down the path to believing a lie?

People like Dillahunty have studied subjects like logic, philosophy and the like formally. I am a "layman" in this and tend to address these terms in common parlance.
I tend to think of it as "reason".
As for "Would true logic lead a man down the path to a lie?" - It could if the man receiving the logic misunderstood the complexities of the discourse.

 

[TDidymas]

I want to start by asking:- Have you seen and heard much of his footage - on the Atheist Experience, etc.? From what I've gleaned from him, there's almost no doubt in my mind that he's sincere in his position. Ray Comfort has accused him of never believing and I sympathetically share some of his (Dillahunty's) indignation at this. He's not "a child who was born in a Christian home and never believed." I explained earlier about his background (commitment to Jesus, service, preparing to study about the background of the Bible, to enabling him to better his ability to evangelise to people, in accordance with 1Pet3:15).
Strictly speaking, he could be a "wolf in sheep's clothing", but I can't see it.
When I arrived at the library, I saw I'd been inundated with responses (which is good and I appreciate it) and I'm just starting to respond. Because of the size of the material, etc., I may miss something or repeat material or miss an issue that been brought up by someone. I'll try not to do this.
In this light, may I ask - What do you make of Paul's passage in Heb6:4-6, where he says "It is impossible for those were once enlightened...if they shall fall away to renew them again unto repentance, as they crucify the Lord afresh and expose Him to an open shame."? There also another verse which says about the wilful sinning of a person, saying there's no sacrifice for sin left and there follows an expectation of wrath. These seem, at least at first sight, to imply it's possible to lose one's salvation.
Would you like to explain where I'm wrong on this point?

A description of Dillahunty's conversion to atheism says it was because of a more in-depth examination of his Christian faith, and doesn't explain the details of it. I'm not willing to go through many hours of research on this guy to find out exactly where he went wrong, but I would bet that he fell to certain pitfalls, such as:
1. His faith was strictly intellectual and feely - IOW, purely natural, because he did not seek the spiritual aspect in the scripture. 1 Cor. 2 says that the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit. Since the gospel and belief in the only true God is spiritual, how could he ever have trusted Christ? The natural way of things can be deceptive, and people can be deceived about being a Christian, according to the testimony of Jesus and the NT writers. Jesus said "not everyone who calls Me 'Lord' shall enter the kingdom of heaven."
2. His opinion obviously was regarded by him as more important over the scripture, therefore He never submitted to God's word, but rather judged it. He never sought wisdom from above, but rather thought himself wise enough to judge that God's word wasn't true. He obviously came to the conclusion that the gospel was foolish to believe, just as Paul describes in 1 Cor. ch. 1-2.
3. Did he ever fear God? In Rom. 3 it says "there is no fear of God before their eyes." If he had feared God, he wouldn't be judging Him.

My conclusion about him is that he never was a true believer. His faith was tried by the "fire" of false ideas and deception of the world's system, and failed. He did not "love the truth." Therefore, he became the apostate described in Heb. 6. But could he possibly be converted to the truth and become a true believer? Only God can do such a thing.

Concerning the "willful sinning" you mentioned, its the sin of unbelief that Heb. 10 is talking about. The expectation of wrath presumes that one believes in God, but chooses to forsake the gospel. It is possible, I suppose, that a person might reject the gospel while believing in God, but I don't know if that's the case with Dillahunty.

Think about it: 1 Pet. 1:9 says we are "kept by the power of God through faith" - and since Dillahunty was not kept, he did not belong to Christ. 1 John 2:19 says "they went out from us to show they did not belong to us." Therefore he wasn't a true believer.

 

[TDidymas]

if we can deny God, we can fall into apostasy like mentioned going to happen in the Last Days.

what i resent most is telling others they can sin like the world, sell their souls, become witches, and they are still Saved because of a False Doctrine called OSAS!

Any Biblical teaching can be distorted. People misuse the OSAS idea because they are not well educated as to the ramifications. If an antinomian claims OSAS, we know he is deceived. But one who has the Spirit of God keeping him safe (as testified by the apostles), can rightfully claim OSAS. To fear God is to heed all the warnings of scripture.

 

[Runningman]

The vibe I’m getting from the OSAS hyper-grace bunch reminds me of this verse:

Jude 1:4
4For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

If you keep reading past Jude 1:4, the end of ungodly people is destruction.

The fact is that the grace of God can be abused. Are there limits to God’s grace?

 

[TDidymas]

How would we define logic? Would true logic lead a man down the path to believing a lie?

Good question, and what is the logic based on? Paul makes clear distinction between natural wisdom and spiritual wisdom in 1 Cor. 1. So in order for someone to follow spiritual logic (wisdom), they must be born again.

 

[Snacks]

Also key to receiving Eternal Life is Holy Communion.

Absolute heretical nonsense.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Hi Free Grace. I agree with you on some points

Although I am CS/non-OSAS, I also believe OSASers will be in Heaven.

Thank you for your support!

I just consider that that doctrine has some dangers/pitfalls.

Since it was Jesus Himself who very clearly taught eternal security by teaching that WHEN a person believes, they POSSESS eternal life in John 5:24 AND in 10:28 stated that those He gives eternal life (that would be believers) SHALL NEVER PERISH.

So the doctrine of eternal security is ironclad. And you believe what Jesus taught "has some dangers/pitfalls"??? Really?

I even agree with you that (3) believers who go on sinning will be chastised by the Lord, according to Heb 12:11 which you cited: "11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it. Thus far, on these points, we agree.

And this doctrine (divine discipline) should have removed any perceived "danger/pitfalls" that you there there are.

I will even go further and say, (4) Perseverance in Grace, like Justification itself, is Pure Grace. We cannot earn/deserve/merit it. It is a Pure Gift but it is not necessarily given at the same time as Justification, but often much later.

I don't see the relevance of this to CS or eternal security.

And just 3 verses later, it says, "14 Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." which shows again imo that final salvation is dependent on perseverance in holiness until the end.

I think you are misunderstanding the verse. I will re-phrase what "w/o holiness, no one will see the Lord". In fact, it can be understood in 2 ways.

1. without holiness, the believer will be out of fellowship and therefore have NO FELLOWSHIP with the Lord.
2. without holiness, no one ELSE will see the Lord. What are believers supposed to do? Imitate the Lord. Live our lives Christ-like.

So believers who are NOT living a holy life, will not be Christ-like and others will not see Christ in them.

I know you disagree with the CS interpretation of Mat 24:13, but for me it's another clear verse talking about final salvation: "12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved." The Lord is not speaking of deliverance from trials, but rather of not growing cold in love of Him.

The issue here is found in the context. Which is the 7 year Tribulation. So, "the end" refers to the end of the Tribulation.

Even in Jn 10:27-28, which you cite often, the Lord says: "27 My sheep (1) listen to my voice; (2) I know them, and (3) they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand."

So, as per that verse also, there are 3 conditions we have to fulfill.

Gonna stop you there. No, there are NO conditions to fulfill in the 2 verses. None whatsoever. v.27 is a simple statement about what believers DO or OUGHT TO DO. We obviously know that not all believers listen and follow all the time. Some don't even some of the time. We call them "backsliders". The data on saved children who leave home and attend secular colleges is in and unfortunately shows that many actually leave the faith. I know Calvinists will dismiss them as having "not really believed" which is a cop-out, since Jesus Himself noted the second soil that "believed for a while", meaning they WERE SAVED, yet in time of testing/temptation, they "fell away".

Arminians will admit they WERE saved, but lost it when they left the faith. And both are wrong. They represent the second soil that Jesus noted. Luke 8:13

And when you take it along with Jn 6 and Jn 15 cited earlier, it becomes clear that the fulfilment of the promise in Jn 10:28 is dependent on what we are commanded to do.

It is NOT. In John 5:24 Jesus SAID that "whosoever believes HAS (means posesses) eternal life". That is ironclad. Possessing eternal life is conditioned on BELIEVING IN CHRIST. Nothing else.

Then, in 10:28 Jesus was clear about those who have received eternal life. They SHALL NEVER PERISH. It couldn't be more clear.

Those who believe that salvation an be lost, for any reason, simply are in DISAGREEMENT with what the Lord said Himself.

The reason those 3 verses I cited speak of being given eternal life after persistence in good works is because those passages are speaking of final salvation, not initial justification. Any other interpretation doesn't reconcile with the texts.

Sorry, but that is wrong. John 5:24 makes clear HOW to possess eternal life. And 10:28 makes clear the result: they SHALL NEVER PERISH.

 

[Snacks]

I think once saved always saved misunderstands what saved is.

Please elaborate

 

[Snacks]

They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

You just described American Democrats, not Christians (who believe in OSAS). Big difference.

 

[Snacks]

Do tell, dont leave me hanging

Wait let me try and guess...

Is it because they see it as a supernatural one off event, where God actually comes and makes His abode in him? And think being born again is becoming a new creation?

Or is it because they count the cost when they make the decision, for instance it could cost them their friends, their family, or even their life and when counting the cost they see all they could have in the world yet they still choose heaven/Jesus at the expense of the world and worldly blessings?

Is it because they genuinely believe, God is a rewarder of those who put their faith in Him, that those who genuinely believe He will reward life to those who ask for it, and they become sons or inheritors from the moment of conversion?

That’s what I believe.

 

[PennEd]

Looks like it’s the bi- annual time to list the 101 Biblical proofs of Eternal Securfir the born again child of God:

1. The believer has everlasting or eternal life.

John 5:24: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”

John 10:28: “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”

2. The believer is born of God.

John 1:12-13: “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”

3. Christ will raise every believer up at the last day.

John 6:44-47: “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, and they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me hath everlasting life.”

4. The believer has already passed from death unto life.

John 5:24: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”

5. The believer is not the object of God’s wrath.

John 3:36: “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

6. Believer are God’s sheep.

John 10:2-4: “But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.”

7. The believer will not listen to nor follow a stranger, but will flee from him.

John 10:5: “And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.” (The stranger here is Satan and his false teachers.)

8. The believer is known of God.

John 10:14: “I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.”

9. The believer listens to the voice of the shepherd.

John 10:27: “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.”

10. The believer is in Christ’s hand and cannot be plucked out.

John 10:28: “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”

11. The believer is in the Father’s hand and cannot be plucked out.

John 10:29: “My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.”

12. The shepherd is charged with the responsibility of keeping the sheep.

John 10:11-14: “I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.”

13. The believer is not condemned.

John 3:18: “He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

14. The believer shall never thirst.

John 4:14: “But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.”

15. The believer will keep Christ’s commandments.

John 14:23: “Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.”

16. The believer is secure because of Christ’s prayer.

John 17:9-12: “I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee, Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.”

17. The believer shall never die.

John 11:26: “And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?”

18. The believer to be kept from the evil.

John 17:15: “I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.”

Jesus prays that the believer may be kept from the Devil. Was this prayer answered?

19. The believer to be with Christ in glory.

John 17:24: “Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.”

20. The believer shall never hunger.

John 6:35: “And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.”

21. The believer will in no wise be cast out (Not under any circumstance).

John 6:37: “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.”

22. Christ will not lose a single believer.

John 6:39: “And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.”

23. Christ will raise up the believer at the last day.

John 6:38-40: “For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.”

24. Whosoever eats the bread of life shall never die.

John 6:51: “I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live forever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

25. Because the Holy Spirit abides in the believer forever.

John 14:16-17: “And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever; even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.”

26. Because it is the Father’s will that Christ should lose nothing.

John 6:39: “And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.”

27. Because one cannot be unborn.

John 3:5: “Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”

28. The believer will follow Christ.

John 10:27: “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.” Following Christ, can one be lost? Have we any right to add to God’s Word by inserting if” to the passage?

29. The believers continue with God.

1 John 2:19: “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.”

30. Because it is the believer’s faith that overcomes the world.

1 John 5:4: “For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.”

 

[PennEd]

Because of the record that God hath given.

1 John 5:10-11: “He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.”

32. The believer is to be like Christ.

1 John 3:2: “Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.”

33. The believer is kept by the power of God.

1 Peter 1:5: “Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.”

34. The man who believes shall be saved.

Acts 16:31: “And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.”

35. The believer has been saved.

Ephesians 2:8-9: “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.

36. The believer is hid by God in Christ.

Colossians 3:3: “For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.” Can the devil find that which God hides?

37. The believer shall not come into condemnation.

John 5:24: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”

38. There is now therefore no condemnation for the believer.

Romans 8:1: “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”

39. The believer is sealed by the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 1:13: “In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.”

40. The believer is sealed for a definite time, the day of redemption, or the resurrection of the body.

Ephesians 4:30: “And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.”

41. The believer liveth and abideth forever.

1 Peter 1:23: “Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever.”

42. The believer is dead to sin.

Romans 6:2: “God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?”

43. The believer will appear with Christ in glory.

Colossians 3:4: “When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.”

44. The life of the believer is Christ’s life.

Colossians 3:4: “When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.”

45. Since Christ cannot die again, the believer is eternally secure.

Romans 6:9-10: “Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.”

46. The believer is saved through faith not by works.

Ephesians 2:8-9: “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”

47. This faith a gift from God.

Romans 6:23: “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

Ephesians 2:8-9: “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”

48. The believer is not saved by what he does, but by what Christ has done for him.

Titus 3:5: “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.”

Romans 4:5: “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”

49. Salvation is a gift, not a wage.

Romans 6:23: “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

50. The believer’s hope is a living hope.

1 Peter 1:3: “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.”

51. The believer’s hope will not fade away. Will not grow dim.

1 Peter 1:4-5: “To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.”

52. The believer’s hope is reserved (set aside) in heaven for him.

1 Peter 1:4: “To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you.”

53. The believer’s inheritance is incorruptible.

1 Peter 1:4: “To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you.”

54. The believer’s inheritance cannot be defiled.

1 Peter 1:4: “To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away reserved in heaven for you.”

55. The believer is kept through faith.

1 Peter 1:4-5: (See reasons number 36 and 37): “to an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.”

56. The believer to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:5: “Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.”

The believer is more than conqueror through Christ.

Romans 8:37: “Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.”

57. The believer justified by faith, to be saved from wrath.

Romans 5:9: “Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.”

58. Nothing can separate the believer from Christ.

Romans 8:38-39: “For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

59. Christ will complete salvation until the end.

Philippians 1:6: “Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.”

60. The believer to be preserved spirit, soul, and body.

1 Thessalonians 5:23: “And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

61. God cannot lie.

Titus 1:2: “In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began.”

62. Jesus is able to save unto the uttermost.

Hebrews 7:25: “Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.”

63. The believer is born of incorruptible seed.

1 Peter 1:23: “Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever.” Can the devil corrupt that which God says is incorruptible?

64. The believer is perfected forever.

Hebrews 10:14: “For by one offering he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified.”

65. The believer believes unto the saving of his soul.

Hebrews 10:38-39: “Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.”

 

[PennEd]

The believer made righteous through Christ’s obedience.

Romans 5:18-19: “Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”

67. Because all things work together for good to the believer.

Romans 8:28: “And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.”

68. Because the believer is so helpless that he cannot place his sins upon Christ. God must do it for him. Therefore salvation is by grace.

Isaiah 53:6: “All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.”

69. Because Christ did not come to help us, but to save us.

Luke 19:10: “For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.”

70. Because God, not being a man, cannot lie.

Numbers 23:19: “God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?”

71. Because His mercy endureth forever.

Psalm 136: Twenty-six times in this Psalm it is written His mercy endureth forever.”

72. Because the believer has not yet borne the image of the heavenly.

1 Corinthians 15:49: “And as we have borne the image of the earthly, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.”

73. Because the believer is preserved unto the heavenly kingdom.

2 Timothy 4:18: “And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory forever and ever.”

74. Because the believer is the object of God’s mercy, not His wrath.

Ephesians 2:4: “But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us.”

John 3:36: “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

1 Thessalonians 5:9-10: “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.”

75. Because a sealed and witnessed transaction is final.

Ephesians 1:13: “In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.” Sealed by the Spirit.

Hebrews 10:15: “Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us.”

76. Salvation is obtained, not attained.

Hebrews 9:12: “Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.”

77. Because the believer is a new creation. Created in Christ Jesus. Therefore eternal in righteousness.

Ephesians 4:24: “And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.”

78. Because the Father reckons the sinner:

Romans 6:3-5: “Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.”

Ephesians 2:4-6: “But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved); And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.”

79. Because all believers will be changed at Christ’s coming.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52: “Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”

80. Because of the “MUST” of 1 Corinthians 15:53.

1 Corinthians 15:23: “For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.”

81. Because the power of God is not limited.

Matthew 28:18-19: “And Jesus came and spake to them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.”

1 Peter 1:5: “Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.”

82. Because the saints are preserved forever.

Psalms 37:28: “For the Lord loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved forever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.”

83. Because nothing can separate us from the love of Christ.

Romans 8:35: “Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?”

The answer NO” is demanded by the passage to the question.

84. Because God will not forget the believer.

Isaiah 49:15: “Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet I will not forget thee.”

85. Because the new covenant in His blood, is an everlasting covenant.

Jeremiah 32:40: “And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.”

86. Because the believer has ceased from his own works.

Hebrews 4:10: “For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.” It is God that works in the believer.

87. Because we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Christ once for all.

Hebrews 10:10: “By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.”

88. Because the believer has already been redeemed (Past tense).

2 Peter 1:18-19: “Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.”

89. Because the believer’s salvation is begun and finished by Christ.

Hebrews 12:2: “Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.”

90. Because salvation is by grace, and not by any mixture of grace and works.

Romans 11:6: “And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.”

91. Because Christ died. rose again, and intercedes for born again believers.

Romans 8:37: “Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.”

Hebrews 7:25: “Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.”

92. Because God predestined believers in His Truth according to His foreknowledge before the foundation of the world to be conformed to the image of his Son, and then, in time, He calls and justifies us, and finally He will glorify us.

Romans 8:29-30: “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.”

Ephesians 1:5, 7, 11, 13: "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will ... In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace ... In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: ... In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation ..."

2 Corinthians 2:13: "... God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth."

93. Because salvation IS salvation.

Hebrews 5:9: "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec."

Hebrews 7:25: "Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them."

94. The believer cannot perish.

John 3:16: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

95. Because God’s promise that through the offering of Christ He will put away the believer’s sins, and will remember them no more.

Hebrews 10:17: “And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.”

96. Because God is for us!

Romans 8:31: "What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?"

97. God chastens His children rather than exiling them to Hell.

1 Corinthians 11:31-32: "For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world."

 

[PennEd]

98. God allows His children to suffer loss of rewards in Heaven rather than exiling them to Hell.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15: "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

99. God allows His children to suffer shame at His coming rather than exiling them to Hell.

1 John 2:28: "And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming."

100. Because God is greater than our heart.

1 John 3:20: "For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things."

101. God is able to save and keep us.

2 Timothy 1:12: "... I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day."

Jude 1:24: "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, to the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen."

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
This is an oft repeated myth. To fall away means to no longer believe. But it doesn't mean "no longer saved" as so many think.


This is another myth. The truth: once faith, "shall never perish". Jesus said so in John 10:28. In that verse, He said recipients of eternal life shall never perish. No ifs, ands, or buts. He gave no exceptions, and no conditions on believers in order to never perish.

The gift of eternal life is possessed when a person believes in Christ. John 5:24


And they don't understand it at all. Arminians think that salvation can be lost. That is really a heresy.


Do you even understand what Jesus was telling the 11? When Jesus mentioned "abiding in Him and He in them" He was referring to being IN fellowship with the Lord. Believers who are out of fellowship cannot bear fruit. That was His point.

Why everyone seems to make it about salvation is amazing.

I really like wasting time I guess.

So you think discussion Scripture is a waste of time?

The reason people say its about salvation is because what happens to the ones who do not bear fruit? Yeah...

Fall away means exactly that, apostasy means to no longer be in the faith. The Bible doesn't teach you believe once and then dont and are saved, thats the non-good ground Jesus talks about in the parable of the sower, who believe for a while then fall off.

To believe is a continuing verb, you remain in the faith.

What people miss is that ceasing to believe NEVER means losing salvation. That is a myth, a fallacy. No verse says such a thing.

If you die a nonbeliever, you will be dealt with as such.

Right. According to the Bible, a "nonbeliever" is someone who NEVER believed. Which you probably never knew. There are 2 verses that very clearly teach WHO will be condemned. Since we all know that it is only the unsaved who will be condemned, let's look at the verse.

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

I highlighted the phrase that is the same in both verses. And the phrase means "NEVER believed". Because, IF someone HAD believed, such as the second soil in Luke 8:13, then you CAN'T say they "have not believed" because they DID believe.

So your argument doesn't hold.

Don't be deceived by this guy or anyone else. What you are teaching is very very new and unheard of.

So you are accusing me of making up stuff??? Maybe you just don't get out enough and are very naive about what is taught in the Bible.

You will be put on the ignore list, once a man is this deceived, all discussion is futile.

I really don't care what you or any other poster does. I post for the benefit of those who never post but read and follow threads in order to learn or at least compare what others present as doctrine.

I do believe John 10:28, but do you really want to get into it with Bible verses, it would be a landslide?

What in the world do you mean by this? A "landslide" regarding what, exactly? Since your post is obviously contrary to what I have presented, I KNOW that you cannot believe John 10:28, so don't claim you do. If you did, you would believe in eternal security.

Do you believe the verses about people falling away from the faith?

Of course I believe them. The second soil is an example that Jesus gave. But since He taught in John 5:24 that "whosoever believes POSSESSES eternal life", I KNOW that the gift is received WHEN a person believes. And then, in John 10:28, Jesus said that recipients of eternal life (believers) SHALL NEVER PERISH.

That nails it. Eternal security. So ANY verse that YOU or anyone else thinks teaches conditional security, are WRONG.

The verses where Jesus says not all who say Lord Lord are saved but those who do the will of the Father, and these were believers who did works in Jesus' name... now imagine unbelievers lol.

More assumption. There is NO indication that any of that crowd EVER believed. What was their appeal based on? What THEY did, and not what Jesus did for them. Good grief. Read the 3 clear verses for a change. There is nothing about what they believed regarding Jesus' finished work on the cross. It was all about them and what they did. Works salvation all the way.

And what Jesus said to them is instructive: "I NEVER knew you". How could He say that IF they EVER believed? Impossible.

I suggest you think through these verses before you make your pronouncements.

What about

1 John 2:3-4
And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,

Again, pure assumption. You seem to be assuming thaty "come to know Him" means get saved. Nope. Paul 4 times wrote to various churches "I would not have you IGNORANT brothers" and then taught them some doctrine.

Believers not only can be ignorant of the Bible, many ARE ignorant. Read through the gospel of John, and see how to be saved.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

The word translated "obey" means "disbelieve". You can look it up.

Enjoy the heresy

It is stupid to call a doctrine that Jesus taught a heresy.

God only knows how popular this teaching will become in these days, probably more and more, as it is a license to sin and in this case even further, you don't even gotta believe in Jesus (except once and then you can fall away). Its just so stupid, the Bible gives warnings for no reason? If you can fall away and its all good?

Don't bother writing a winded response as I just wasted time doing as you are on ignore and it will not be seen.

My responses have nothing to do with this self admitted time waster.

I write for those who only read the threads with no intention of posting. I give clear evidence from Scripture of what I believe.

The time waster can't do that. I refuted every verse he quoted in his post. But he won't see it.

He will answer for his refusal to believe what Jesus taught.

 

[Cameron143]

People like Dillahunty have studied subjects like logic, philosophy and the like formally. I am a "layman" in this and tend to address these terms in common parlance.
I tend to think of it as "reason".
As for "Would true logic lead a man down the path to a lie?" - It could if the man receiving the logic misunderstood the complexities of the discourse.

1 Corinthians 1:21 says the world through wisdom knows not God. Man cannot reason his way to God. He may reason the existence of God and the providence of God through creation but it requires the revelation of truth to fallen mankind to know Him intimately. That comes through the foolishness of preaching. Hence the Apostle is not ashamed of the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Runningman]

You just described American Democrats, not Christians (who believe in OSAS). Big difference.

lol okay. Honesty I don’t like the democrats or republicans, but if I had to chose I typically vote republican or independent if I’m in the US. I prefer the MAGA type Trump-supported republicans more because they seem to have more spine.

If you people want your country back in a general sense then playing nicely isn’t gonna cut it anymore. You’re going to need Trump-era candidates who won’t sit idly by while American rights are eroded, but will instead wrest what belongs to them out of the hands out their opponents and hold on to it.

I haven’t been on a political rant in what feels like at least a year so I needed to get that out of my system. Now back to the Bible…

 

[oyster67]

The fact is that the grace of God can be abused. Are there limits to God’s grace?

The window of opportunity to repent is finite as pertaining to time.

e.g., One never knows when one may unexpectedly die physically.

There may be a sort of heart hardening process also.

Romans 1:28
“And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;”

 

[Runningman]

The window of opportunity to repent is finite as pertaining to time.

e.g., One never knows when one may unexpectedly die physically.

There may be a sort of heart hardening process also.

Romans 1:28
“And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;”

That may be true for an unbeliever, but Paul in Romans said the grace of God is accessed by faith.

Romans 5:1,2
1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

And then Jude 1:4 says that the grace of God can be turned into license for immortality by people who have condemnation. Only believers, with their faith, can access God’s grace. This is all about people who first accessed God’s grace through faith then came under condemnation.

 

[Thewatchman]

If any one repents of the sin of completely walking away from Jesus even on there death bed they will be forgiven.

Romans 3:25 copied from biblehub.com
Berean Literal Bible
whom God set forth as a propitiation through faith in His blood, for a showing forth of His righteousness, because of the forbearance of the sins having taken place beforehand,

King James Bible
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Verse 26

Berean Literal Bible
in the forbearance of God, for the showing forth of His righteousness in the present time, for Him to be just, and justifying the one of the faith of Jesus.

King James Bible
To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.



From the time you except Jesus; going forward you must ask for the forgiveness for your sins commented knowingly or unknowingly or they will be held against you. The sins commented beforehand are wiped off the books. There may be 1 or 2 exceptions IN MY THANKING 1 would be capital murder and rape of a child. I thank God is going to stand you in front of them and you will have to ask them for forgiveness and they can say yes or no and God will not hold them accountable for ether answer given.



This asking for forgiveness is not what is being talked about in Hebrews 6:6 is talking about “They crucify again unto repentance” this would be if you were saved backslid and then asked Jesus to save you all over again. There is no second time for salvation. Salvation is like being born if you and your parents have a falling out and you want to make it right with them you do not go back and ask can we start all over again and you have me a second time. That is crazy right. What you do is you go and ask for there forgiveness and you start with a clean slate. The parable of the Prodigal Son; he came back and said father just make me one of your lowest servant but the Father forgave him all and took him back as a son.



As for a rapture there is such word in the bible. Satan comes at the 6th trump gathers his children and then the 7th trump sounds Jesus returns puts his foot on the Mt. Of Olives splits it and makes His millennial kingdom.