Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked
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if you can LEAVE, you choose to forfeit what you had.
God, ain't going to say, this Person, [[DOES NOT WANT TO BE WITH ME]]. so, you know what, I will FORCE that Person to be with me, the God this person hates, for all Eternity.
i don't buy it for a moment, and if you do, i have some ocean front property, in the middle of Arizona, i would love to sell to you!
"Once saved always saved" is just another way of saying "You will not surely die." Gen. 3:4
what's interesting about Genesis 3:4, is it is Evidence, that Satan, not only HEARD, but BELIEVED, that God would literally kill Adam and Eve [[immediately]] for this Disobedience....when God Commanded for the Tree of Knowledge to not be eaten from.
and then, Satan, went on the Deception Trail leading Eve to what he thought was a for sure and certain death.
[[God, knows Everything before it happens, but, i like to explain it in a way it appears, that God, did to Satan, what Satan, thought he was doing to Adam and Eve]] ---> So, this tells me, God, knew Satan was listening, knew Satan believed his Warning, and this was a Plan of God to stick it to Satan.
No problem at all. It's the whole chapter of Matthew 25. Context is very important to help us understand what we are being taught. So Jesus starts off with two parables, the ten virgins and the talents. He then ends with the judgement scene. In all three, the only thing that determines their fate is what they did or did not do. Hope that helps. If not, let me know.
I don't think it was from what they did or did not do. Instead, I think it was by what they were given or not given.
The ten virgins were divided between five that were wise, and five that were foolish.
As I understand its interpretation, the oil of the lamps is symbolic of the anointing of the Holy Spirit, and the lamps symbolic of spiritual wisdom and understanding from the oil.
The wise were made so by God. We know this because the oil was in their lamps, so they could see spiritually, and made wise- or said another way - they had the Holy Spirit - the five foolish were so because the oil (the Holy Spirit) was not within their lamps, so they could not see spiritually, and were not spiritually wise. The five foolish believed that the anointing oil (the Holy Spirit), could be purchased - which belief was of their foolishness - in effect, believing that God could be purchased or acquired through their own efforts, rather than only by God through His grace. The five wise, already having the Holy Spirit through God's grace, had their lamps lit and filled with oil through His anointing of the Holy Spirit. They, having been given the Holy Spirit and by it, spiritual wisdom, could see and understand when to enter in. The five wise refused to give their oil to the unwise because had they done so, that would have meant them unwise, not being able to see, and not having the Holy Spirit, because they knew the Holy Spirit cannot be given by a person to a person, nor can He be purchased – but only by God's grace. Being wise, they realized that. This was made clear by the groom (Jesus) saying unto the foolish that He “knew them not”. Had God given to them the Holy Spirit as He did to the wise, then by that, they would have been known by Christ.
So, the actions of the ten virgins were a result of God having either giving them the Holy Spirit, or not giving them the Holy Spirit. Without the Holy Spirit, they would have no light to see, to respond, or when to enter in, but those with Him, would.
[1Sa 16:13 KJV] 13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.
[Lev 10:7 KJV] 7 And ye shall not go out from the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: for the anointing oil of the LORD [is] upon you. And they did according to the word of Moses.
[Mat 7:22-23 KJV]
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
The parable of the talents I believe, is that those servants who had a true knowledge of salvation (the talents) and having been given faith, they thereby acted faithfully - and brought forth an increase beyond the talent’s monetary value through its power by trading, which power, in spiritually terms, is realized in the sharing of the gospel (which of course with God as its power, is He who brings forth its increase).
The unprofitable servant who also had a knowledge of salvation but a superficial one, being without faith, could not bring forth an increase, and therefore, he acted unfaithfully not comprehending nor trusting in the talent’s power – he could trust only in the talent’s monetary value alone, and was therefore fearful to trade, which the other servants having been given faith, and being faithful, could trust in, and did trade to bring forth increase, albeit to varying degrees between them, nevertheless, they did bring forth increase.
The parable of the sheep I believe I've addressed extensively in my prior posts to you.
I composed this quickly so it may not be phrased very well nor very clearly, plus it may overlook some logical aspects, but I believe the gist correct. So, since we have gone through this several times now, I suggest we move on to the next topic for discussion.
May I respectfully suggest you are reading this looking for what you want it to say and not trying to understand what it's telling you. For example,
you said, - the five foolish were so because the oil (the Holy Spirit) was not within their lamps, so they could not see spiritually, and were not spiritually wise. They had the same oil in their lamps as did the wise. 7 Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ The foolish lamps were still burning but because of the delay they were going out. They were all virgins, they were all part of the same wedding party and they all had oil in their lamps. Only the wise made it in because of what they did and the foolish didn't make it in because of what they didn't do.
The talents. How did you determine they had "different" talents? True knowledge and superficial?
Using your logic of the sheep. Did God make them wolves?
We all see what we want to see at times. That's why it's good to talk with someone who disagrees with us. Hopefully they can help us to see what we're not seeing.
Respectfully disagree.
Their lamps were empty. Not going out but were out. "took no oil with them" means they had no oil.
[Mat 25:3 KJV] 3 They that [were] foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
[Mat 25:8 KJV] 8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
Not sure that I understand you. Talents are a measurement of money, not of inherent personal abilities.
[Mat 25:27 KJV] 27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and [then] at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
Satan makes the wolves, God does not. But God made sheep of only those He wanted for sheep.
Were true that and based upon what one does or doesn't do - which is how I understand your interpretation of those parables - then there would be no such thing as a Saviour. A Saviour must be the one who saves fully, completely and to the uttermost in spite of, not in addition to, the actions of those whom He saves.
Perhaps I wasn't clear. The talents (the money) of the parable symbolizes the gospel and salvation.
The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.’
They started out with oil but did not bring extra as the wise ones had.
The wise, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps.
Don't think so:
took no oil means no oil
[Mat 25:3-4 KJV]
3 They that [were] foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
[Mat 25:8 KJV]
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
Their lamps could not have gone out if they were not lit to begin with.
The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.’
They started out with oil but did not bring extra as the wise ones had.
The wise, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps.
It doesn't say "going out", nor does it say "extra", it says gone out, as in, extinguished. If they tried to light them but couldn't they extinguished. Using your interpretation (which I don't agree with), even if they did not bring "extra" oil, regardless, they didn't have oil.
I think we're just at an impasse with this.
As for the virgins, think about what you're saying. Whether it says going out or gone out, it means the lamps were/are burning. When it says they brought no oil, it means they didn't bring extra oil to be prepared for a delay.
As for the talents you said it's a measurement of money. Each servant was given talents (same thing). How did you determine that the 5&2 were given faith and the 1 talent man was not given faith if they were each given the same thing.
If God makes the sheep, why doesn't He make everyone sheep? He desires everyone to be saved. who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
We absolutely need a Savior. This has been confused for many years and because of that it's hard for people to understand. Let me ask you this, do you believe we are saved by faith alone? I imagine you do but what does the bible tell us about faith alone.
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. I believe what the bible says so I strive to understand what that means. What Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? means.
There are NO AMOUNT of works we can do to save ourselves. Impossible!! We are only saved by the grace of God and it is a gift but He doesn't give the gift to everyone. If there is nothing we can do, then everyone is saved. Therefore there is something we can/must do to receive the gift. I suggest we need to read the scriptures to determine what it is we must do.
Yes, and their lamps were going out by midnight. Meaning they had been lit until then. Matthew 25:8 in the
KJV says, our lamps are gone out, which carries with it implicit implication that they had been lit before.
New International Version
The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.’
New Living Translation
Then the five foolish ones asked the others, ‘Please give us some of your oil because our lamps are going out.’
English Standard Version
And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’
Berean Standard Bible
The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.’
Berean Literal Bible
And the foolish said to the wise, 'Give us of your oil, for our lamps are going out.'
King James Bible
And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
New King James Version
And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’
New American Standard Bible
But the foolish virgins said to the prudent ones, ‘Give us some of your oil, because our lamps are going out.’
NASB 1995
“The foolish said to the prudent, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’
NASB 1977
“And the foolish said to the prudent, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’
Legacy Standard Bible
And the foolish said to the prudent, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’
Amplified Bible
But the foolish virgins said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, because our lamps are going out.’
Christian Standard Bible
The foolish ones said to the wise ones, ‘Give us some of your oil, because our lamps are going out.’
Holman Christian Standard Bible
But the foolish ones said to the sensible ones, ‘Give us some of your oil, because our lamps are going out.’
American Standard Version
And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are going out.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
The fools said to the wise, “Give us some of your oil, behold, our lamps have gone out.”
Contemporary English Version
the foolish ones said to the others, "Let us have some of your oil! Our lamps are going out."
Douay-Rheims Bible
And the foolish said to the wise: Give us of your oil, for our lamps are gone out.
English Revised Version
And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are going out.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
"The foolish ones said to the wise ones, 'Give us some of your oil. Our lamps are going out.'
Good News Translation
Then the foolish ones said to the wise ones, 'Let us have some of your oil, because our lamps are going out.'
International Standard Version
"But the foolish ones told the wise, 'Give us some of your oil, because our lamps are going out!'
Literal Standard Version
and the foolish said to the prudent, Give us of your oil, because our lamps are going out;
Majority Standard Bible
The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.’
New American Bible
The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’
NET Bible
The foolish ones said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil, because our lamps are going out.'
New Revised Standard Version
The foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’
New Heart English Bible
The foolish said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.'
Webster's Bible Translation
And the foolish said to the wise, Give us of your oil: for our lamps are gone out.
Weymouth New Testament
"'Give us some of your oil,' said the foolish ones to the wise, 'for our torches are going out.'
World English Bible
The foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’
Young's Literal Translation
and the foolish said to the prudent, Give us of your oil, because our lamps are going out;
I thought that I did think about it. No, it doesn't mean that, it means when the time came, they tried to light them (trimmed them) but they extinguished for a lack of oil.
Sorry, still not sure I follow when you say "each were given the same thing". I don't see any of them being given the same thing. But we know the one given one talent didn't have faith because we are told the lord called the others "faithful", but not him. For them to be faithful, they had to have faith. Faith is from whence faithfulness originates so the others (besides him) had faith.
[Mat 25:23 KJV] 23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
He doesn't desire everyone to become saved. He chose whom He will be based upon His divine prerogative and good pleasure. He is
God and especially since He made payment to bring salvation to fruition, He owes no on an apology nor explanation for His choices.
The "all" refers to all the Father gave to the Son for salvation, but that does not encompass everyone ever born only certain ones.
[Jhn 6:37 KJV] 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Saved by Christ's faith and Christ's works, not ours. They alone were necessary to bring forth salvation. It was by His works that His faith was made perfect. His works being a part of His works, or it would have been a dead faith. We are simply its beneficiaries.
Respectfully, sounds to me like you contradict yourself. If there is no work that we can do to save ourselves, well, then there is no work we can do to save ourselves - none whatsoever, right? Yet you say, "there is something we can and must do to receive the gift". According to you, if there is that something, and if we do it, then beyond dispute, we save ourselves; if we don't do it, then beyond dispute, we won't be saved. That not only would then be our work to do, but also makes of us our saviour, doesn't it? Any requirement for us for salvation no matter how slight it may be, is work - it's binary. The Saviour's salvation must cover everything, to include the something we can and must do, as you say. Were it to be otherwise, then Christ can't be the Saviour. That is what is meant by saves to the uttermost - that everything pertaining to salvation was covered by it.
To trim a wick does not mean to light it. That's called eisegesis.
It's hard to get across thoughts in this way but we can only do the best we can.
What I mean is there are no amount of works we can do to save ourselves. The price is more than we can ever pay. We are sinful and no amount of works can fix that. Only the grace of God by the blood of Jesus can cleanse us of sins. The question is who gets the gift. If I understand you correctly, God determines who gets it and who does not. In a way I agree. I understand it as those who answer the call get it. You quoted Jn. 6:37. The context is 35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. Whoever, that is anyone who comes anyone who believes. Those are the ones the father has given, those who come, those who believe.
On the day of Pentecost, Peter says 40 And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.” They've heard the gospel message, it's now up to them. Then the bible tells us who were added. Added being put into Christ, the father giving them to Christ by the Holy Spirit adding them. 41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls. We see that those who believed and were baptized were added. Just as Jesus said, 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
If it is as you say I would think the bible would be worded very differently. Why does Jesus even tells us of the foolish virgins. It's not their fault they're foolish, God didn't choose them nor supply them with what they needed. There is nothing for the chosen to be gained from it and there is nothing the non chosen can do about it. If only those who are chosen are saved and they can't be lost, then why do we see all these warnings and so on?
7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. 9 And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart.
Hope this makes more sense but I got a feeling we're speaking two different languages.