Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked
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Below is what you said. Do you see "submit and follow Him" anywhere in it? It says, "to Believe in Him" and "forces people to believe".
That is an entirely different question than of forcing someone to submit and follow.
Possibly, you're referring to a different post, one that I didn't see, so why don't you post its number, and we can take it from there.
"But how you explain the process of God forcing people to Believe in Him is literally not found anywhere in the Bible.
In fact, there's nothing that states God forces people to believe."
That is an entirely different question than of forcing someone to submit and follow.
Possibly, you're referring to a different post, one that I didn't see, so why don't you post its number, and we can take it from there.
"But how you explain the process of God forcing people to Believe in Him is literally not found anywhere in the Bible.
In fact, there's nothing that states God forces people to believe."
This thread is getting too large to manage. But the more I look at it, the more I think OSAS is not true. This scripture is pretty plain.
(Hebrews 10:26__NASB) For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
(27) but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries.
(28) Anyone who has ignored the Law of Moses is put to death without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
(29) How much more severe punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
(30) For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.”
(31) It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
saw a few commentors saying stuff like "salvation can't be salvation unless it's unconditional or eternal or can't be taken back". Says who? Our view needs to be scripture based, not opinion based. Back in the old days this was also the case:
(Jeremiah 18:6__NASB) “Am I not able, house of Israel, to deal with you as this potter does?” declares the Lord. “Behold, like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, house of Israel.
(7) At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot it, to tear it down, or to destroy it;
(8) if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I planned to bring on it.
(9) Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it;
(10) if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will relent of the good with which I said that I would bless it.
Yes, there's scripture that says no one can "snatch" aka steal you out of God's hand. But we have free will, we can still of our own choice walk out of God's protection (through sin and our actions). If you are following God, then you are covered, your soul is protected by Him and don't have to worry. But if you are moving in sin and practicing it, and through your lifestyle and actions are not following God, I don't think this applies. Jesus said to many "Follow Me", and "not my will, but Yours (God the Father)'s be done. And yet many christians live as though they can keep on sinning and do whatever they want. Not according to the Hebrews scripture up there.
the parable of the man who was forgiven an enormous, unpayable debt, lost forgiveness because he failed to forgive someone who owed him. At the end of the parable, Jesus says:
Matt 18:23-33
...
32Then summoning him, his master *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34And his master, moved with anger, handed him over to the [ad]torturers until he would repay all that was owed him. 35My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your [ae]heart.”
if this is literal, which it seems to be, then if God doesn't forgive us bc of us not forgiving others...that's the whole premise of salvation, that we can't make it on our own, and only can stand before God if He forgives us. Hence, if He takes it back and we have no forgiveness, that seems to indicate a loss of salvation
It mentions it also in the Lord's Prayer.
Matt 6
14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
Paul mentions running the race, and makes it sound like salvation is like the prize at the end of the race, not something he'd already attained. We're called to endure, and not shrink back. And here's another big scripture that seems pretty eye opening:
(Matthew 7:21__NASB) “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
(22) Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
(23) And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; leave Me, you who practice lawlessness.’
(24) “Therefore, everyone who hears these words of Mine, and acts on them, will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock.
(25) And the rain fell and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.
(26) And everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
(27) And the rain fell and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and its collapse was great.”
This tells me a few things. It says you can do legit miracles, casting out demons, etc and still not be necessarily doing the will of God. And that those who appear to enter the kingdom (which sounds like salvation and heaven), are those who do the will of the Father, who are know or perhaps more specifically are known by God, and those who do not practice lawlessness. Which seems to be, not practicing sin.
there's also the parable of the 10 virgins, which seems to be talking about believers. 5 of them were foolish, not prepared, and missed it (rapture? salvation?)
Scripture compares us to slaves waiting for the master's return, and that if you turn and start beating your fellow slaves, God will "cut you in two", which sounds like language one might use for punishment for breaking covenant, and put you in the place with hypocrites (some versions say unbelievers). Which sounds like hell.
(Matthew 24:45__AMP) “Who then is the faithful and wise servant whom his master has put in charge of his household to give the others [in the house] their food and supplies at the proper time?
(46) Blessed is that [faithful] servant when his master returns and finds him doing so.
(47) I assure you and most solemnly say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions.
(48) But if that servant is evil and says in his heart, ‘My master is taking his time [he will not return for a long while],’
(49) and begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards;
(50) the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour of which he is not aware,
(51) and will cut him in two and put him with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping [over sorrow and pain] and grinding of teeth [over distress and anger].
The one who is considered to have done God's will.... is the one who ACTUALLY DOES IT. Not just says they will
(Matthew 21:28__NASB) “But what do you think? A man had two sons, and he came to the first and said, ‘Son, go work today in the vineyard.’
(29) But he replied, ‘I do not want to.’ Yet afterward he regretted it and went.
(30) And the man came to his second son and said the same thing; and he replied, ‘I will, sir’; and yet he did not go.
(31) Which of the two did the will of his father?” They *said, “The first.” ...
(Luke 6:46__NASB) “Now why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?
In the end times, also it says anyone who takes the mark of the beast will go to hell, so, don't do that, even though it will be required to buy and sell
Revelations 14:6-11
ultimately, we can't save ourselves, so our own actions/ good deeds alone can't save us, but we are called and expected to properly respond. We are called to follow and obey. We can't just mentally affirm that God is real or exists (even demons believe that, but they aren't saved), faith requires action. (see James)
(Hebrews 10:26__NASB) For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
(27) but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries.
(28) Anyone who has ignored the Law of Moses is put to death without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
(29) How much more severe punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
(30) For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.”
(31) It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
saw a few commentors saying stuff like "salvation can't be salvation unless it's unconditional or eternal or can't be taken back". Says who? Our view needs to be scripture based, not opinion based. Back in the old days this was also the case:
(Jeremiah 18:6__NASB) “Am I not able, house of Israel, to deal with you as this potter does?” declares the Lord. “Behold, like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, house of Israel.
(7) At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot it, to tear it down, or to destroy it;
(8) if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I planned to bring on it.
(9) Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it;
(10) if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will relent of the good with which I said that I would bless it.
Yes, there's scripture that says no one can "snatch" aka steal you out of God's hand. But we have free will, we can still of our own choice walk out of God's protection (through sin and our actions). If you are following God, then you are covered, your soul is protected by Him and don't have to worry. But if you are moving in sin and practicing it, and through your lifestyle and actions are not following God, I don't think this applies. Jesus said to many "Follow Me", and "not my will, but Yours (God the Father)'s be done. And yet many christians live as though they can keep on sinning and do whatever they want. Not according to the Hebrews scripture up there.
the parable of the man who was forgiven an enormous, unpayable debt, lost forgiveness because he failed to forgive someone who owed him. At the end of the parable, Jesus says:
Matt 18:23-33
...
32Then summoning him, his master *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34And his master, moved with anger, handed him over to the [ad]torturers until he would repay all that was owed him. 35My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your [ae]heart.”
if this is literal, which it seems to be, then if God doesn't forgive us bc of us not forgiving others...that's the whole premise of salvation, that we can't make it on our own, and only can stand before God if He forgives us. Hence, if He takes it back and we have no forgiveness, that seems to indicate a loss of salvation
It mentions it also in the Lord's Prayer.
Matt 6
14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
Paul mentions running the race, and makes it sound like salvation is like the prize at the end of the race, not something he'd already attained. We're called to endure, and not shrink back. And here's another big scripture that seems pretty eye opening:
(Matthew 7:21__NASB) “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
(22) Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
(23) And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; leave Me, you who practice lawlessness.’
(24) “Therefore, everyone who hears these words of Mine, and acts on them, will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock.
(25) And the rain fell and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.
(26) And everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
(27) And the rain fell and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and its collapse was great.”
This tells me a few things. It says you can do legit miracles, casting out demons, etc and still not be necessarily doing the will of God. And that those who appear to enter the kingdom (which sounds like salvation and heaven), are those who do the will of the Father, who are know or perhaps more specifically are known by God, and those who do not practice lawlessness. Which seems to be, not practicing sin.
there's also the parable of the 10 virgins, which seems to be talking about believers. 5 of them were foolish, not prepared, and missed it (rapture? salvation?)
Scripture compares us to slaves waiting for the master's return, and that if you turn and start beating your fellow slaves, God will "cut you in two", which sounds like language one might use for punishment for breaking covenant, and put you in the place with hypocrites (some versions say unbelievers). Which sounds like hell.
(Matthew 24:45__AMP) “Who then is the faithful and wise servant whom his master has put in charge of his household to give the others [in the house] their food and supplies at the proper time?
(46) Blessed is that [faithful] servant when his master returns and finds him doing so.
(47) I assure you and most solemnly say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions.
(48) But if that servant is evil and says in his heart, ‘My master is taking his time [he will not return for a long while],’
(49) and begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards;
(50) the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour of which he is not aware,
(51) and will cut him in two and put him with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping [over sorrow and pain] and grinding of teeth [over distress and anger].
The one who is considered to have done God's will.... is the one who ACTUALLY DOES IT. Not just says they will
(Matthew 21:28__NASB) “But what do you think? A man had two sons, and he came to the first and said, ‘Son, go work today in the vineyard.’
(29) But he replied, ‘I do not want to.’ Yet afterward he regretted it and went.
(30) And the man came to his second son and said the same thing; and he replied, ‘I will, sir’; and yet he did not go.
(31) Which of the two did the will of his father?” They *said, “The first.” ...
(Luke 6:46__NASB) “Now why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?
In the end times, also it says anyone who takes the mark of the beast will go to hell, so, don't do that, even though it will be required to buy and sell
Revelations 14:6-11
ultimately, we can't save ourselves, so our own actions/ good deeds alone can't save us, but we are called and expected to properly respond. We are called to follow and obey. We can't just mentally affirm that God is real or exists (even demons believe that, but they aren't saved), faith requires action. (see James)
so you do not believe eternal life is eternal?
You do not believe Christ paid for our gift with his own blood. and it is not ours to give away, it is his?
you do not believe he will never leave nor forsake us?
You do not believe we have the seal of the spirit, a pledge until redemption day (resurrection)
You think we must earn salvation by our works?
You do not believe Christ paid for our gift with his own blood. and it is not ours to give away, it is his?
you do not believe he will never leave nor forsake us?
You do not believe we have the seal of the spirit, a pledge until redemption day (resurrection)
You think we must earn salvation by our works?
That's because you believe there are 2 types of people running around. One are those God created for Hell and those He created for His Own company.
In other words, the God you serve is not about Love at all.
Which shows you also are not about Love, like your God, because you believe your God chose you to be with Him and the other people you know in life not serving your God has been cut off and doomed for Hell.
So basically, you walk around judging people based upon your doctrine.
In other words, the God you serve is not about Love at all.
Which shows you also are not about Love, like your God, because you believe your God chose you to be with Him and the other people you know in life not serving your God has been cut off and doomed for Hell.
So basically, you walk around judging people based upon your doctrine.
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I disagree, the idea that "God doesn't offer invitations for salvation. He, being God, makes born-again whomever He had so chosen for it, whenever He chooses to do so".
While God does intervene at different times, particularly for judgment, God does not just do whatever, whenever He wants. This denies free will. We know there are some things God cannot do, such as lie, nor does God tempt people. There is scripture that says God draws people to Him, however, that does not mean that people always respond (and if they don't, God doesn't force them)
Matt 23
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’[a]”
This belief ties to the idea that God controls everything, or always get what He wants. This is false, because of free will. God is not willing that any should perish but all should come to Him (and be saved), yet we KNOW there will be many people who end up in hell.
While God does intervene at different times, particularly for judgment, God does not just do whatever, whenever He wants. This denies free will. We know there are some things God cannot do, such as lie, nor does God tempt people. There is scripture that says God draws people to Him, however, that does not mean that people always respond (and if they don't, God doesn't force them)
Matt 23
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’[a]”
This belief ties to the idea that God controls everything, or always get what He wants. This is false, because of free will. God is not willing that any should perish but all should come to Him (and be saved), yet we KNOW there will be many people who end up in hell.
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By far the most egregious falsehood that I have ever heard on CC. Absolutely outrageous.
What in the world do you think we are doing in preaching to the lost world?
Furthermore, THE ONLY REASON for this present existence is God seeking and saving that which was lost.
Give your head a shake man. You are way out of line.
Mat 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mar 16:15
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Act 1:8
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Luk 24:47
And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Act 26:20
But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
Mat 3:2
And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mat 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mar 1:15
And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Mar 6:12
And they went out, and preached that men should repent.
Act 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 3:19
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Rev 2:21
And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
Luk 13:34
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
What in the world do you think we are doing in preaching to the lost world?
Furthermore, THE ONLY REASON for this present existence is God seeking and saving that which was lost.
Give your head a shake man. You are way out of line.
Mat 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mar 16:15
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Act 1:8
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Luk 24:47
And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Act 26:20
But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
Mat 3:2
And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mat 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mar 1:15
And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Mar 6:12
And they went out, and preached that men should repent.
Act 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 3:19
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Rev 2:21
And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
Luk 13:34
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
If anyone can be saved because they "accept" an invitation that would mean salvation was of themselves and not of God and grace.
God knows those that are His and only they become saved. Do you think otherwise?
Doing this:
[2Co 2:15-16 KJV] 15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
16 To the one [we are] the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who [is] sufficient for these things?
God knows those that are His and only they become saved. Do you think otherwise?
Doing this:
[2Co 2:15-16 KJV] 15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
16 To the one [we are] the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who [is] sufficient for these things?
Don't think so. All that He draws must become saved and so He cannot be drawing everyone, or everyone would have to become saved.
I don't see a request being made to anyone in that verse, do you? Seems to me to be an absolute statement with not contribution
of those drawn. The transaction was entirely between Father and Jesus.
I think that to be drawn one must have ALREADY become saved and being drawn is its result.
I don't see a request being made to anyone in that verse, do you? Seems to me to be an absolute statement with not contribution
of those drawn. The transaction was entirely between Father and Jesus.
I think that to be drawn one must have ALREADY become saved and being drawn is its result.
more verses concerning free will
(2 Peter 3:9__NASB) The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance.
(Deuteronomy 30:15__NASB) “See, I have placed before you today life and happiness, and death and adversity,
(16) in that I am commanding you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, so that you may live and become numerous, and that the Lord your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to take possession of it.
(17) But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but allow yourself to be led astray and you worship other gods and serve them,
(18) I declare to you today that you will certainly perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter and take possession of it.
(19) I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have placed before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,
(20) by loving the Lord your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding close to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, so that you may live in the land which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”
The bible itself and God gives us rules/laws, makes no sense if free will does not exist. Why tell someone they should and should not do, if they never had a choice to deviate?
-so you do not believe eternal life is eternal?
this question isn't worded the best, heaven is eternal life with God, hell is eternal separation from God which = regret / suffering / lack of any and everything good. Both are eternal existences.
I think what you mean to ask, is whether "being saved" is eternal or can be lost (before we reach heaven). Yes, I think it can be lost, and I backed it up with scriptures. See the Hebrews passage I mentioned. It clearly states you cannot remain in sin, and expect Jesus' sacrifice to cover you. Jesus Himself said I will say to many "depart from Me" in Matt 7:21. It's not enough to just say God is our Lord with words only.
-You do not believe Christ paid for our gift with his own blood. and it is not ours to give away, it is his?
It is Jesus who paid the price, yes, so Salvation must come from Him. That said, we should look at what He said then, about salvation and of sin. Again, what does it say in Matthew? I will say to them "depart from Me" even though they did miracles, cast out demons, etc, because He says He did not know them and they practiced lawlessness and they did not do the will of God the Father. What else? Jesus talks heavily about sin
(Mark 9:43__NASB) And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life maimed, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire.
(44)
(45) And if your foot is causing you to sin, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life without a foot, than, having your two feet, to be thrown into hell.
(46)
(47) And if your eye is causing you to sin, throw it away; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be thrown into hell,
(48) where their worm does not die, and the fire is not extinguished.
(49) For everyone will be salted with fire.
(50) Salt is good; but if the salt becomes unsalty, with what will you make it salty again? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another.”
He forgave people like the prostitute that was dragged before Jesus, He said He didn't condemn her either, but also, go and sin no more.
John 8:11
She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on do not sin any longer.”]]
God is not willing that any should perish, YET many will go to hell. It's not just a matter of "it's a gift of God for Him to give freely". If it was, He'd say, everybody come on into heaven no matter what. No, there looks to be a judgment day coming. It mentions the need for your name to be written in the Book of Life. What blots your name out of the book? Sin. Jesus' sacrifice is what can save and get our names preserved in the book of life. Yet what does Jesus say? Why do you call me Lord Lord and not do what I say? How many "christians" only say the prayer, and never do what God says or live for Him? Will that save them? According to James, that doesn't seem to be the case, faith requires action. Jesus said we need to do the will of the Father. He said in the parable, which son actually did what his father wanted? The one who actually did it.
-you do not believe he will never leave nor forsake us?
If you are in God, then yes, God will be with us "even unto the end of the age". But whether you
Now that you mention it, curiously it says:
Matt 28
20 teaching them to [a]follow all that I commanded you; and behold, I am with you [b]always, to the end of the age.”
I am with you "to the end of the age", that is not eternity. It's like till the next age, which might be the tribulation or the Millenial Reign, or until after we die.
(2 Peter 3:9__NASB) The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance.
(Deuteronomy 30:15__NASB) “See, I have placed before you today life and happiness, and death and adversity,
(16) in that I am commanding you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, so that you may live and become numerous, and that the Lord your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to take possession of it.
(17) But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but allow yourself to be led astray and you worship other gods and serve them,
(18) I declare to you today that you will certainly perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter and take possession of it.
(19) I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have placed before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,
(20) by loving the Lord your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding close to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, so that you may live in the land which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”
The bible itself and God gives us rules/laws, makes no sense if free will does not exist. Why tell someone they should and should not do, if they never had a choice to deviate?
-so you do not believe eternal life is eternal?
this question isn't worded the best, heaven is eternal life with God, hell is eternal separation from God which = regret / suffering / lack of any and everything good. Both are eternal existences.
I think what you mean to ask, is whether "being saved" is eternal or can be lost (before we reach heaven). Yes, I think it can be lost, and I backed it up with scriptures. See the Hebrews passage I mentioned. It clearly states you cannot remain in sin, and expect Jesus' sacrifice to cover you. Jesus Himself said I will say to many "depart from Me" in Matt 7:21. It's not enough to just say God is our Lord with words only.
-You do not believe Christ paid for our gift with his own blood. and it is not ours to give away, it is his?
It is Jesus who paid the price, yes, so Salvation must come from Him. That said, we should look at what He said then, about salvation and of sin. Again, what does it say in Matthew? I will say to them "depart from Me" even though they did miracles, cast out demons, etc, because He says He did not know them and they practiced lawlessness and they did not do the will of God the Father. What else? Jesus talks heavily about sin
(Mark 9:43__NASB) And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life maimed, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire.
(44)
(45) And if your foot is causing you to sin, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life without a foot, than, having your two feet, to be thrown into hell.
(46)
(47) And if your eye is causing you to sin, throw it away; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be thrown into hell,
(48) where their worm does not die, and the fire is not extinguished.
(49) For everyone will be salted with fire.
(50) Salt is good; but if the salt becomes unsalty, with what will you make it salty again? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another.”
He forgave people like the prostitute that was dragged before Jesus, He said He didn't condemn her either, but also, go and sin no more.
John 8:11
She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on do not sin any longer.”]]
God is not willing that any should perish, YET many will go to hell. It's not just a matter of "it's a gift of God for Him to give freely". If it was, He'd say, everybody come on into heaven no matter what. No, there looks to be a judgment day coming. It mentions the need for your name to be written in the Book of Life. What blots your name out of the book? Sin. Jesus' sacrifice is what can save and get our names preserved in the book of life. Yet what does Jesus say? Why do you call me Lord Lord and not do what I say? How many "christians" only say the prayer, and never do what God says or live for Him? Will that save them? According to James, that doesn't seem to be the case, faith requires action. Jesus said we need to do the will of the Father. He said in the parable, which son actually did what his father wanted? The one who actually did it.
-you do not believe he will never leave nor forsake us?
If you are in God, then yes, God will be with us "even unto the end of the age". But whether you
Now that you mention it, curiously it says:
Matt 28
20 teaching them to [a]follow all that I commanded you; and behold, I am with you [b]always, to the end of the age.”
I am with you "to the end of the age", that is not eternity. It's like till the next age, which might be the tribulation or the Millenial Reign, or until after we die.
pt2 due to character limits
-You do not believe we have the seal of the spirit, a pledge until redemption day (resurrection)
parable of ten virgins seems to imply there were 10 virgins waiting, which many think this refers to Christians, who missed the bridegroom coming. Though ~maybe that's missing the rapture (albeit, you could likely still be saved afterward, but then have to go through the tribulation).
Heb 12
15See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many become defiled; 16that there be no sexually immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal. 17For you know that even afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears.
interesting wording, "falling short of the grace of God", and being unable to inherit the blessing (heaven) and being rejected.
Rev 2
2‘I know your deeds and your labor and perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil people, and you have put those who call themselves apostles to the test, and they are not, and you found them to be false; 3and you have [c]perseverance and have endured on account of My name, and have not become weary. 4But I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 5Therefore, remember from where you have fallen, and repent, and do the [d]deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and I will remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.
what does "removing your lampstand from its place" mean? This is Revelation, so like God talking to the churches AFTER Jesus was here. If salvation was eternal, why would He tell churches (that is, believers) anything like this? He'd just say, bunker down. Don't worry cause ofc you're OSAS. That's not the implication I get from these words.
Rev 3
1“To the angel of the church in Sardis write:
He who has [a]the seven spirits of God and the seven stars, says this: ‘I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, and yet you are dead. 2Be constantly alert, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My God. 3So remember what you have received and heard; and [c]keep it, and repent. Then if you are not alert, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you. 4But you have a few [d]people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. 5The one who overcomes will be clothed the same way, in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. 6The one who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’
...
14“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the [k]Origin of the creation of God, says this:
15‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. 16So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will vomit you out of My mouth.
...
19Those whom I love, I rebuke and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.
Again, this to the churches/believers post/after Jesus came. Why would God say this, if they had eternal security?
It says the "one who overcomes....I will not erase his name from the book of life". We know your name needs to be in the book of life for salvation/eternal life. This implies, the one who does not overcome, could have his name erased from the book of life, aka loss of salvation.
-You do not believe we have the seal of the spirit, a pledge until redemption day (resurrection)
parable of ten virgins seems to imply there were 10 virgins waiting, which many think this refers to Christians, who missed the bridegroom coming. Though ~maybe that's missing the rapture (albeit, you could likely still be saved afterward, but then have to go through the tribulation).
Heb 12
15See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many become defiled; 16that there be no sexually immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal. 17For you know that even afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears.
interesting wording, "falling short of the grace of God", and being unable to inherit the blessing (heaven) and being rejected.
Rev 2
2‘I know your deeds and your labor and perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil people, and you have put those who call themselves apostles to the test, and they are not, and you found them to be false; 3and you have [c]perseverance and have endured on account of My name, and have not become weary. 4But I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 5Therefore, remember from where you have fallen, and repent, and do the [d]deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and I will remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.
what does "removing your lampstand from its place" mean? This is Revelation, so like God talking to the churches AFTER Jesus was here. If salvation was eternal, why would He tell churches (that is, believers) anything like this? He'd just say, bunker down. Don't worry cause ofc you're OSAS. That's not the implication I get from these words.
Rev 3
1“To the angel of the church in Sardis write:
He who has [a]the seven spirits of God and the seven stars, says this: ‘I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, and yet you are dead. 2Be constantly alert, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My God. 3So remember what you have received and heard; and [c]keep it, and repent. Then if you are not alert, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you. 4But you have a few [d]people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. 5The one who overcomes will be clothed the same way, in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. 6The one who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’
...
14“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the [k]Origin of the creation of God, says this:
15‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. 16So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will vomit you out of My mouth.
...
19Those whom I love, I rebuke and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.
Again, this to the churches/believers post/after Jesus came. Why would God say this, if they had eternal security?
It says the "one who overcomes....I will not erase his name from the book of life". We know your name needs to be in the book of life for salvation/eternal life. This implies, the one who does not overcome, could have his name erased from the book of life, aka loss of salvation.
I asked a precise question a number of times and did not get an answer. Instead I was
criticized for how I framed a simple, straightforward query, and was told I was being snarky.
People really ought to make up their minds -
criticized for how I framed a simple, straightforward query, and was told I was being snarky.
People really ought to make up their minds -
Snarky is not a word I use. Give me your post numbers and I'll reply. I don't duck questions or disagreements.
pt 3 due to char limits
-You think we must earn salvation by our works?
Rev 20
11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose [g]presence earth and heaven fled, and no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and [h]books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the [j]books, according to their deeds. 13And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them; and they were judged, each one of them according to their deeds. 14Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if [k]anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
we are judged "according to our deeds", and "if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire". Salvation is only possible through Jesus' sacrifice, but it seems very much like our deeds/actions/response to God, not just our words (that was the pharisees, white washed tombs, looking pretty on the outside, full of death on the inside), but in our actions and our lives.
(Matthew 25:31__NASB) “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
(32) And all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, just as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
(33) and He will put the sheep on His right, but the goats on the left.
(34) “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
(35) For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
(36) naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’
(37) Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?
(38) And when did we see You as a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?
(39) And when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’
(40) And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it for one of the least of these brothers or sisters of Mine, you did it for Me.’
(41) “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you accursed people, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
(42) for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
(43) I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’
(44) Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or as a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’
(45) Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it for one of the least of these, you did not do it for Me, either.’
(46) These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Like I said, look at James. And I clarified our works alone don't save us, but faith without works/action/deeds is dead. But, if you truly believe, it should come out of you in some fashion. The fruit that comes out of you should show you have Holy Spirit working in you, and your deeds should show it. If you claim to be an orange tree, and never bear oranges, it is reasonable to doubt and question and to ask, am I really in God? Like it says in the scripture, grapes are not gathered from
James 2
18But someone [m]may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19You believe that [n]God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20But are you willing to acknowledge, you foolish person, that faith without works is useless? 21Was our father Abraham not justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that faith was working with his works, and [o]as a result of the works, faith was [p]perfected; 23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called a friend of God. 24You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25In the same way, was Rahab the prostitute not justified by works also when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
if one disagrees, I'd be curious to hear an alternate explanation particularly for Hebrews 10:26-31 and Matthew 7:21-27
-You think we must earn salvation by our works?
Rev 20
11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose [g]presence earth and heaven fled, and no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and [h]books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the [j]books, according to their deeds. 13And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them; and they were judged, each one of them according to their deeds. 14Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if [k]anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
we are judged "according to our deeds", and "if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire". Salvation is only possible through Jesus' sacrifice, but it seems very much like our deeds/actions/response to God, not just our words (that was the pharisees, white washed tombs, looking pretty on the outside, full of death on the inside), but in our actions and our lives.
(Matthew 25:31__NASB) “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
(32) And all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, just as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
(33) and He will put the sheep on His right, but the goats on the left.
(34) “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
(35) For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
(36) naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’
(37) Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?
(38) And when did we see You as a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?
(39) And when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’
(40) And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it for one of the least of these brothers or sisters of Mine, you did it for Me.’
(41) “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you accursed people, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
(42) for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
(43) I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’
(44) Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or as a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’
(45) Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it for one of the least of these, you did not do it for Me, either.’
(46) These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Like I said, look at James. And I clarified our works alone don't save us, but faith without works/action/deeds is dead. But, if you truly believe, it should come out of you in some fashion. The fruit that comes out of you should show you have Holy Spirit working in you, and your deeds should show it. If you claim to be an orange tree, and never bear oranges, it is reasonable to doubt and question and to ask, am I really in God? Like it says in the scripture, grapes are not gathered from
James 2
18But someone [m]may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19You believe that [n]God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20But are you willing to acknowledge, you foolish person, that faith without works is useless? 21Was our father Abraham not justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that faith was working with his works, and [o]as a result of the works, faith was [p]perfected; 23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called a friend of God. 24You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25In the same way, was Rahab the prostitute not justified by works also when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
if one disagrees, I'd be curious to hear an alternate explanation particularly for Hebrews 10:26-31 and Matthew 7:21-27
Israel turned down the "invitation" to the Kingdom and the Lordship of their true King, likewise the people of this age.
BTW, who do you think you are, declaring that YOU know exactly who, why and how ANYODY is saved.
WE DON'T KNOW. You don't know.
And I thank God that I don't know either. Because I don't want to know. Our task is to preach the gospel. The Holy Ghost, the Son and the Father take care of the business of salvation.
NOT MY JOB to split hairs and strain gnats trying to play God in assuming to know who did what, when, how, and why.
BTW, who do you think you are, declaring that YOU know exactly who, why and how ANYODY is saved.
WE DON'T KNOW. You don't know.
And I thank God that I don't know either. Because I don't want to know. Our task is to preach the gospel. The Holy Ghost, the Son and the Father take care of the business of salvation.
NOT MY JOB to split hairs and strain gnats trying to play God in assuming to know who did what, when, how, and why.
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