Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[rogerg]

No, I would not do that, because I would only be telling half the truth

While those who believe were elected to eternal life

That is the result, not the cause.

God is a God of love, he respects no person.

you keep posting the fruit of the spirit. A person who is not yet saved does not have the fruit.. He must be saved first.

they are saved by GRACE through faith..

only after are people given special gifts. I have met few people who have had the spiritual gift of faith, they are an awsome view of Gods child I only wish I had that gift

Wait - I'm really confused now about what your point is. Did you just say above that a person who is not saved does not have the fruit, and that they must be saved first to get it? That's how I read it. If so, I would totally agree with that, and it has been my point all along. That can only mean that they who do get it are of the elect - singularly those chosen to salvation by God.
Receiving the fruit of the Spirit comes from being born-again, which comes with being saved. They must first occur in order to obtain the fruits and the true faith. None of which is possible for a man of himself to do - it is only as the free gift of God.
Is this your point?

.

 

[rogerg]

This is how election is to be understood: that all who believe in Jesus will be, by God's hand, conformed, sanctified, and set apart for the work of God through them.

True belief is the gift of God - the fruit of the Spirit. It is not by man.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Wait - I'm really confused now about what your point is. Did you just say above that a person who is not saved does not have the fruit, and that they must be saved first to get it? That's how I read it. If so, I would totally agree with that, and it has been my point all along. That can only mean that they who do get it are of the elect - singularly those chosen to salvation by God.
Receiving the fruit of the Spirit comes from being born-again, which comes with being saved. They must first occur in order to obtain the fruits and the true faith. None of which is possible for a man of himself to do - it is only as the free gift of God.
Is this your point?

.

Yes,

Thats why one must be saved before they recieve the spirit as a seal

As paul said,

they hear the word of truth,. the gospel of salvation. and after having believed,. they are sealed with the spirit

I also call this the anointing of the spirit (using the example of the priest. who were washed, then anointed with the oil, which represented the spirit coming on them)

it is that indwelling that causes the gifts.. each individually as the spirit desires.

 

[NilsForChrist]

Yes,

Thats why one must be saved before they recieve the spirit as a seal

As paul said,

they hear the word of truth,. the gospel of salvation. and after having believed,. they are sealed with the spirit

I also call this the anointing of the spirit (using the example of the priest. who were washed, then anointed with the oil, which represented the spirit coming on them)

it is that indwelling that causes the gifts.. each individually as the spirit desires.

Indeed.

 

[Aaron56]

True belief is the gift of God - the fruit of the Spirit. It is not by man.

Naw. It's the language of a kingdom. Grace is the gift. Kings give grace. The first hearers of Ephesian 2 would have known that.

The King extends grace, which is different than mercy. It is the ability to be included in the House of God in Christ.

"..and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus."

Salvation is not the "exceeding riches". The riches are the fact that In Christ, we may sit in the place reserved for the Son of God alone. This is the exceeding riches given, by grace, from the King.

We do not obtain this place by our standard, only by in Christ can we meet the standard needed to sit together with Christ. We are co-heirs with Him of this place and of the exceeding riches of God.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast."

The Museum of Chicago is IN Chicago. Faith of ourselves does not save us only the faith in the grace of God saves us. And the grace of God is nothing we can earn by anything we do.

Much is lost on us because we typically reject the pattern of kingly rule. It's time we learn it again becuas ewe are children of THE King.

 

[NilsForChrist]

Naw. It's the language of a kingdom. Grace is the gift. Kings give grace. The first hearers of Ephesian 2 would have known that.

The King extends grace, which is different than mercy. It is the ability to be included in the House of God in Christ.

"..and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus."

Salvation is not the "exceeding riches". The riches are the fact that In Christ, we may sit in the place reserved for the Son of God alone. This is the exceeding riches given, by grace, from the King.

We do not obtain this place by our standard, only by in Christ can we meet the standard needed to sit together with Christ. We are co-heirs with Him of this place and of the exceeding riches of God.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast."

The Museum of Chicago is IN Chicago. Faith of ourselves does not save us only the faith in the grace of God saves us. And the grace of God is nothing we can earn by anything we do.

Much is lost on us because we typically reject the pattern of kingly rule. It's time we learn it again becuas ewe are children of THE King.

Indeed so. See also Hebrews 11.

 

[rogerg]

Naw. It's the language of a kingdom. Grace is the gift. Kings give grace. The first hearers of Ephesian 2 would have known that.

All things pertaining to, or from, salvation are the gifts from God. That includes both grace AND faith.
If either is not a gift from God, then neither can salvation be, but we are informed that salvation is a gift from God.
The only rule we should be under and follow is biblical rule. The things of man are not pertinent to the things of God.
The things of this world are enmity to God.
They are not to be as a model to be used to ascertain things spiritual.

[Eph 2:5, 8 KJV]
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved ...
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

 

[rogerg]

Yes,

Thats why one must be saved before they recieve the spirit as a seal

As paul said,

they hear the word of truth,. the gospel of salvation. and after having believed,. they are sealed with the spirit

I also call this the anointing of the spirit (using the example of the priest. who were washed, then anointed with the oil, which represented the spirit coming on them)

it is that indwelling that causes the gifts.. each individually as the spirit desires.

So, you're saying then that it is up to the recipient to" hear" and to "believe, those not being of God's gifts too.
If so, that's what I had thought you believed - you believe in man's work for salvation as I suspected.

 

[ButterflyJones]

So, as it seems this thread is now winding down, I wanted to leave you with these verses to demonstrate that
contrary to the thread's title, OSAS is in fact true and correct.

[Phl 1:6 KJV] 6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:

[1Pe 1:2-5 KJV]
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

I think you're right.

The thread OP insists eternal salvation is a lie. And is not what God says it is.

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

So, you're saying then that it is up to the recipient to" hear" and to "believe, those not being of God's gifts too.
If so, that's what I had thought you believed - you believe in man's work for salvation as I suspected.

i just believe what God said.

Eph 1: 13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who[a] is the [b]guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

I recieved the HS AFTER I heard and AFTER I trusted (believed)

eph 2: 8-9 for it is by Grace You have been SAVED ThROUGH FAITH. And that not of yourself it is the gift of God.. not of works lest anyone should boast

God said faith in him is not works. No one can boast of trusting God and his work..

 

[Mem]

i just believe what God said.

Eph 1: 13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who[a] is the [b]guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

I recieved the HS AFTER I heard and AFTER I trusted (believed)

eph 2: 8-9 for it is by Grace You have been SAVED ThROUGH FAITH. And that not of yourself it is the gift of God.. not of works lest anyone should boast

God said faith in him is not works. No one can boast of trusting God and his work..

I believed God to be trustworthy and so I trusted him. On the other hand, If I didn't trust him before God gave me faith to believe then it was God deeming me believeworthy...

Idk, that sounds like God giving me the glory, iyam.

 

[ButterflyJones]

I believed God to be trustworthy and so I trusted him. On the other hand, If I didn't trust him before God gave me faith to believe then it was God deeming me believeworthy...

Idk, that sounds like God giving me the glory, iyam.

1 Corinthians 2. All understanding is made possible by God's Holy Spirit. Until that the natural mind cannot understand the things of God because they are spiritually discerned.

• • 
    Hebrew/Greek
  • Your Content

1 Corinthians 2

9 But, as it is written,
“What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
nor the heart of man imagined,

10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.

11 For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.[d]
14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Mem]

1 Corinthians 2. All understanding is made possible by God's Holy Spirit. Until that the natural mind cannot understand the things of God because they are spiritually discerned.

• • 
    Hebrew/Greek
  • Your Content

1 Corinthians 2

9 But, as it is written,
“What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
nor the heart of man imagined,

10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.

11 For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.[d]
14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

As I pointed out early, this is speaking among the mature (see 1Cor2 v. 6)

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I believed God to be trustworthy and so I trusted him. On the other hand, If I didn't trust him before God gave me faith to believe then it was God deeming me believeworthy...

Idk, that sounds like God giving me the glory, iyam.

I can't comprehend a person who is saved while still being under the penalty of sin..

Thats like saying a person in prison is released and free before his payment for the crime is paid in full

it just does not happen, especially with a perfect righteous judge. such as God

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

As I pointed out early, this is speaking among the mature (see 1Cor2 v. 6)

6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

funny how people pick verses out of Context and think it proves them right,

 

[Mem]

6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

funny how people pick verses out of Context and think it proves them right,

It stems from the same motive among 'the rulers of this age' that "would not have crucified the Lord of glory." That is, 'they'd not crucify the Lord claiming for reason of His glory but all along taking glory for themselves. Indeed, our 'glorying' ends on the cross and it is the hidden wisdom of the cross that is our glory to find.

 

[rogerg]

i just believe what God said.

Eph 1: 13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who[a] is the [b]guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

I recieved the HS AFTER I heard and AFTER I trusted (believed)

eph 2: 8-9 for it is by Grace You have been SAVED ThROUGH FAITH. And that not of yourself it is the gift of God.. not of works lest anyone should boast

God said faith in him is not works. No one can boast of trusting God and his work..

God did not say that, in fact, He informed us of exactly the opposite.

Anything someone must do for salvation, makes it a work, their work. If it has to be done, and done by them alone, then
without question, that makes the work theirs. The faith of eph 2:8-9 is CHRIST'S faith; it is not of an individual. Christ's faith is that which brought salvation to fruition - our faith comes as a result of His.
I think where you are getting confused is that there are two faiths in the Bible: Christ faith and our faith but you see only one.
Any faith regarding salvation can only be of Christ because He is the Saviour. Our faith is given as a gift and brings us a faith in Christ and in things spiritual. When we reading the Bible, we should always try to ascertain which one (faith) is in view.
If you look at the underlined portions of the verses below, you can see that distinction being made.

[Gal 2:16, 20 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. ...

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

God did not say that, in fact, He informed us of exactly the opposite.

Anything someone must do for salvation, makes it a work, their work. If it has to be done, and done by them alone, then
without question, that makes the work theirs. The faith of eph 2:8-9 is CHRIST'S faith; it is not of an individual. Christ's faith is that which brought salvation to fruition - our faith comes as a result of His.
I think where you are getting confused is that there are two faiths in the Bible: Christ faith and our faith but you see only one.
Any faith regarding salvation can only be of Christ because He is the Saviour. Our faith is given as a gift and brings us a faith in Christ and in things spiritual. When we reading the Bible, we should always try to ascertain which one (faith) is in view.
If you look at the underlined portions of the verses below, you can see that distinction being made.

[Gal 2:16, 20 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. ...

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

So God did not say Eph 1: 13 - 14 and Eph 2: 8-9?

Christ can not have faith for you my friend. You need to trust God to save you.. He will not do it for you

 

[rogerg]

I can't comprehend a person who is saved while still being under the penalty of sin..

Thats like saying a person in prison is released and free before his payment for the crime is paid in full

it just does not happen, especially with a perfect righteous judge. such as God

Christ paid for the crime in full - we do not and cannot - it was by role of as Saviour - He went to prison on our behalf. You are trying to place upon man something that he cannot achieve. The Bible tells us that we have been justified through Christ, not through ourselves.

[Rom 3:24 KJV] 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

[Rom 8:30 KJV] 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

 

[rogerg]

So God did not say Eph 1: 13 - 14 and Eph 2: 8-9?

Christ can not have faith for you my friend. You need to trust God to save you.. He will not do it for you

Christ was faithful to the Father on our behalf. Did you not understand the verses I provided? "by the faith of Christ even we
have believed in Christ". Faith comes as a gift from Christ's faith, given through the fruit of the Spirit as a result of being born-again - it is not to become born again.