Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[Mem]

To the many. Not to all.

1 Timothy 4:10 is often used by Universalists.
If God wants to save everyone in what way is He especially saving those who believe?

You just took a verse that Lamb presented saying "all" and argued is doesn't say "all," as in 'every, the whole, every kind of" men. But then, you'd have to in order to make it say "To the many. Not to all."

And 'especially' means, "and most of all" as it does in Galations 6:10, "Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to everyone, and especially to the family of faith."

 

[ButterflyJones]

I'm behind 10 pages since I last posted but I'm pretty sure no one has moved from their opinion of what Scripture teaches, but it isn't at all unproductive. If nothing else, this provides insight into why others believe so differently.

You've extrapolated 1 Corinthians 2:14 as you've understood it and why you are confident it is not my interpretation.
"14The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned."

However, v. 6 leads into the discussion with, "Among the mature, however...7we speak of the mysterious and hidden wisdom of God...12We have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us..."

There is nothing here that specifically indicate that we receive the Spirit who is from God before we believe, but only that once we receive the Spirit who is from God, we are able to understand the mysterious and hidden wisdom of God by receiving the Spirit who is from God.

In particular to your summary in that last paragraph where you make the observation about v. 6.
I would disagree because the passage for me makes it clear. Especially if you read the entire chapter 2 of 1 Corinthians.

Verse 14 cannot and in my view is not contradicted in chapter 2. All of chapter 2 sustains verse 14 and vice versa .

Context and consistency. No one comes to Jesus unless the Father leads them to Jesus. No one can heed that leading, call of God, unless his Hy Spirit intercedes and changes their natural mind that cannot understand the things of God.
When they can then understand the things of God therein does faith in God and those things begin.

If we insist the natural mind can come to faith first we are calling verse 14 into question.

 

[Mem]

In particular to your summary in that last paragraph where you make the observation about v. 6.
I would disagree because the passage for me makes it clear. Especially if you read the entire chapter 2 of 1 Corinthians.

Verse 14 cannot and in my view is not contradicted in chapter 2. All of chapter 2 sustains verse 14 and vice versa .

Context and consistency. No one comes to Jesus unless the Father leads them to Jesus. No one can heed that leading, call of God, unless his Hy Spirit intercedes and changes their natural mind that cannot understand the things of God.
When they can then understand the things of God therein does faith in God and those things begin.

If we insist the natural mind can come to faith first we are calling verse 14 into question.

1Timothy 4:10...because we have set our hope on the living God...

seems to me that is speaking exactly of having come to faith right there.

 

[Blain]

He said to be perfect as my father is perfect

are you perfect?

I just wanted to note something here. There are two definitions of perfect in scripture one is perfect or perfection while the other is to be wholesome and sound minded. now only he is perfect Jesus is the only human who could claim such a thing . So none can boast to be perfect or they are a liar so it only stands to reason that when we are told to be perfect we are being told to be wholesome and sound minded.
Perfection is a goal in the far distance that hinders you being wholesome and sound minded brings you to the goal with strength

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

You argue it when you insist repeatedly that Jesus died to save all.

Well that’s what Jesus himself said so

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I realize you wish to ignore God's telling us we only understand his gospel after his Holy Spirit intercedes and changes our natural carnal mind toward understanding the things of God.

I understand it quite clearly. That’s what the HS does. It’s why no one will have an excuse because everyone will come to knowledge of the truth of sin righteousness and judgment

It you who fails to understand Gods justice and why we are dead in the first place and what must be done to reverse the penalty of death so we are made alive in the first place

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

“That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.” – 1 Timothy 4:10


“He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.” – 1 John 2:2



“But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!” – Romans 5:15

They need to explain why God used especially in the first vs
why God said not just ours (all believers) but the whole world

And why the dead and the grace overflows to everyone in the third

They can’t so the go in circles.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Who said anything about earning gifts. Doing your duty isn’t attempting to earn anything. You work for free. Anything given to you is simply a gift.

Dude you say it every time you speak
there is hope for you. I believe it. One day you will realize like many Pharisees did the flaw in their thinking

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

To the many. Not to all.

1 Timothy 4:10 is often used by Universalists.
If God wants to save everyone in what way is He especially saving those who believe?

So you can’t answer the question and have to call us universalists??
the Greek says all every the whole. Ever kind
does it say all of the elect? No it says all humankind.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I just wanted to note something here. There are two definitions of perfect in scripture one is perfect or perfection while the other is to be wholesome and sound minded. now only he is perfect Jesus is the only human who could claim such a thing . So none can boast to be perfect or they are a liar so it only stands to reason that when we are told to be perfect we are being told to be wholesome and sound minded.
Perfection is a goal in the far distance that hinders you being wholesome and sound minded brings you to the goal with strength

I agree
but if you look at the whole sermon Jesus is judging the Pharisees who thought they kept the law and did not need Christ
the law says. But I tell you.. exposing the fact that the law (in this case ten commands) is a standard set of rules. Which Moses said they must keep all of them or they were cursed
they thought they kept the law. Do not commit adultry. But Jesus showed them they did not even looking in lust makes them guilty
he ends this message with a stern warning. Be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect. That’s the standard. Those with open eyes should have seen what Jesus is saying. I am not perfect I have failed. I have lusted women I have done this. Although by the letter I may be ok. By the spirit I am cursed
many repented that day and many more later

When I first heard this message it all opened up to me
even the first part. Blessed are the poor for theirs is the kingdom. The particular Greek word there is not poor as we think of it low income. It means to be bankrupt to be destitute. Homeless with no hope beggars. Like the tax collector who fell to his knees
that’s what it takes for one to truly repent. We must be brought to our knees with no hope no place to turn beggars who call out to Jesus with faith and words (Roman’s: 10)

This really opened my eyes and the sermon became More real

 

[rogerg]

The context is wrong. Faith is not a work, but faith is required.

Faith IS a work, and for those who have true faith, it was because of God's work not theirs.
Anything required for salvation but not given completely as a gift to the recipient, is a work.

[Jhn 6:28-29 KJV]
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

 

[VARob]

Faith IS a work, and for those who have true faith, it was because of God's work not theirs.
Anything required for salvation but not given completely as a gift to the recipient, is a work.

[Jhn 6:28-29 KJV]
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

You're misunderstanding the verse. God wants us to work for Him, and that work is to believe on, or have faith in, Jesus Christ.

And we know from Eph 2:8-9 that faith is not a work.

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

One of the fruits of the gift of the Holy Spirit is that our faith grows.

 

[Snacks]

Faith IS a work

So much for grace.

 

[cv5]

Faith IS a work, and for those who have true faith, it was because of God's work not theirs.
Anything required for salvation but not given completely as a gift to the recipient, is a work.

[Jhn 6:28-29 KJV]
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Better to exercise it, plead for it, pray for more, and possess it than try to define its precise nature and origin or try to deny it on some theoretical grounds.

 

[ButterflyJones]

If Jesus saved all then 2 Thessalonians 1:9 is falsehood.

God is the sustainer of all people, believers and unbelievers. This does not mean all are saved. Jesus made that clear.

So you can’t answer the question and have to call us universalists??
the Greek says all every the whole. Ever kind
does it say all of the elect? No it says all humankind.

That you cannot answer my question but asked instead one of your own is actually your answer. You don't know.

You are free to believe in Universalism. That is what you are advocating. The Bible and the verses I and others provided show that Universalism, everyone is saved, is not sustained by Christs gospel.

May God always keep you and yours safe and blessed. Amen.

 

[rogerg]

So you can’t answer the question and have to call us universalists??
the Greek says all every the whole. Ever kind
does it say all of the elect? No it says all humankind.

To have your question answered, you need to consider other applicable verses. God. In writing the Bible, God wrote it as one integrated book from Genesis to The Revelation, but did not always choose to provide the fullness of His answer in one verse. He informs/warns us of that in 2 Pet 1:20. And it is demonstrated in that both an OT and a N.T are needed to complete the gospel.

Your reply has the word "all" in it but does not define who/what the 'all" are - it can potentially mean many things. You've assumed it to mean everyone ever born, but based upon that verse alone, your assumption cannot be considered conclusive. Logically speaking, your criticism therefore can be applied to yourself as well as to Butterflyjones's - you infer something not explicitly stated therein.
So, knowing that, and based upon the words of the verse alone, the "all" is undetermined. To find that out, we need to look elsewhere for resolution, or run the risk of error. Where I personally disagree with your assessment, is that Butterflyjones did provide you that further explanation/resolution of the "all" using other verses to do so. Logically speaking, the "all" cannot be anyone outside of those the Father gave to Christ of which, He must save all. This unequivocally eliminates anyone not given to Christ by the Father as being part of the "all" or of Christ being their Saviour, because no one besides those can/must/will be saved, and hence, Christ has never been their Saviour.
That is, for those who remain unsaved, it is not possible that Christ could ever have been their Saviour, because by definition, the unsaved have no Saviour.
Therefore, the "all" does not pertain to everyone.

[Jhn 6:44 KJV]
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

[Jhn 6:37, 39 KJV]
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. ...
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

 

[rogerg]

So much for grace.

True faith is Christ's work, not ours, and that it is, is what makes it by grace.

 

[rogerg]

You're misunderstanding the verse. God wants us to work for Him, and that work is to believe on, or have faith in, Jesus Christ.

And we know from Eph 2:8-9 that faith is not a work.

Nope, not possible. Anything someone must do for salvation is a work. No one can have true faith unless first given to them
by the Holy Spirt, which is from becoming born again. If God must give it to us, then we can't produce it.
The fruit of the Spirit IS faith.

 

[rogerg]

Better to exercise it, plead for it, pray for more, and possess it than try to define its precise nature and origin or try to deny it on some theoretical grounds.

If someone does that from the heart, then it probably has already been given to them - and those actions are its result. The error
is when someone believes they can produce it of themselves; however, it is important to come to the realization that
it is a gift from God. And those who have been given it, will come to that realization because they know through a renewing of the mind,
that salvation is by Christ alone.

 

[VARob]

Nope, not possible. Anything someone must do for salvation is a work. No one can have true faith unless first given to them
by the Holy Spirt, which is from becoming born again. If God must give it to us, then we can't produce it.
The fruit of the Spirit IS faith.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

People do not receive the gift of the Holy Spirit until they hear and decide to believe the gospel.