Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[ResidentAlien]

I really think THIS is the point that may sway some on the "you can lose your salvation" side.


Are you trusting in JESUS to keep you saved, or are you trusting in YOUR ABILITY to trust to keep you saved.

That's what this debate bolls down at it's essence.

If someone actually did trust in themself and their "great faith," then I might agree. But I'm not saying that and I don't know that anyone else has said it. It's just a strawman argument. Even so, the fact remains, no one can know a person's heart. So unless someone tells you directly, hey, by the way, I trust in my own faith more than I trust in the Lord, there's no way you can know it; unless you claim to have some supernatural gift that enables you to read people's minds.

 

[VARob]

What do you think Messiah means?

To the Ancient Hebrews it means God.

Citation needed.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

New American Standard Bible
21And although you were previously alienated and hostile in attitude, engaged in evil deeds, 22yet He has now reconciled you in His body of flesh through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach— 23if indeed you continue in [ae]the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, [af]was made a [ag]minister.

Nope, not a one and done situation.

Doesn't your Verse state [IF YOU CONTINUE IN THE FAITH]?

that's pretty subjective there and shows a must contingency to KEEP IN THE FAITH.

 

[cv5]

Is living in Victory being more like Jesus who is SINLESS or more like I'm saved so I can do whatever I please?

Just heard a sermon by a pastor I greatly respect who said that two heroin addicts (ladies BTW) received Christ at his Church
.........and OD'ed the next day. Both of them died if I recall correctly.

They were hardly sinless. Really did not overcome much of anything either.

 

[PennEd]

But I understand the Value of my Gift which is why I strive to be more like Christ.

It is the Holy Spirit that transforms you to be more Christlike, not your striving:

Corinthians 3:18

New King James Version

18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

 

[PennEd]

If someone actually did trust in themself and their "great faith," then I might agree. But I'm not saying that and I don't know that anyone else has said it. It's just a strawman argument. Even so, the fact remains, no one can know a person's heart. So unless someone tells you directly, hey, by the way, I trust in my own faith more than I trust in the Lord, there's no way you can know it; unless you claim to have some supernatural gift that enables you to read people's minds.

Well I agree no one but God truly knows someone's heart, but by necessity if you think you can lose your Salvation by no longer trusting Christ, than you DON'T trust Him to keep you saved, and you really just trusted in your ability to trust Him.

Because HE said He would keep you.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Just heard a sermon by a pastor I greatly respect who said that two heroin addicts (ladies BTW) received Christ at his Church
.........and OD'ed the next day. Both of them died if I recall correctly.

They were hardly sinless. Really did not overcome much of anything either.

They were new to our FAITH, but us who have been in it we hopefully are overcoming our vices. If not, then we clearly believe we can do whatever we please and still be saved. Which means, we are not laying down our flesh at all and becoming more like Christ.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

It is the Holy Spirit that transforms you to be more Christlike, not your striving:

Corinthians 3:18

New King James Version

18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Agreed, but it is also my own desire to be like Him.

 

[cv5]

If someone actually did trust in themself and their "great faith," then I might agree. But I'm not saying that and I don't know that anyone else has said it. It's just a strawman argument. Even so, the fact remains, no one can know a person's heart. So unless someone tells you directly, hey, by the way, I trust in my own faith more than I trust in the Lord, there's no way you can know it; unless you claim to have some supernatural gift that enables you to read people's minds.

Childlike trust/faith is legit.
Mat 18:3
and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

At least we know for sure that this is the wrong path....
Luk 18:9
Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

 

[ResidentAlien]

Well I agree no one but God truly knows someone's heart, but by necessity if you think you can lose your Salvation by no longer trusting Christ, than you DON'T trust Him to keep you saved, and you really just trusted in your ability to trust Him.

Because HE said He would keep you.

He also said a lot of things about enduring to the end and not falling away. You must have those scriptures whited out in you Bible.

 

[cv5]

He also said a lot of things about enduring to the end and not falling away. You must have those scriptures whited out in you Bible.

Since when is exhortation a bad thing? Especially coming from the Lord.

Parents exhort their kids day in and day out. This is to be expected. It hardly makes them any less your child.

 

[Edify]

Doesn't your Verse state [IF YOU CONTINUE IN THE FAITH]?

that's pretty subjective there and shows a must contingency to KEEP IN THE FAITH.

Exactly.
Rom 11:17But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the [j]rich root of the olive tree, 18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22See then the kindness and severity of God: to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; for otherwise you too will be cut off. 23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again. 24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

Faithful obedience is continuing in the truth.

 

[ResidentAlien]

but by necessity if you think you can lose your Salvation by no longer trusting Christ, than you DON'T trust Him to keep you saved, and you really just trusted in your ability to trust Him.

Because HE said He would keep you.

Right, He said He would keep us. Don't we have to trust Him and take Him at His word? How are we supposed to believe His word if we're not even allowed to exercise our own faith? Having faith in the Lord isn't a work. That's just ridiculous.

 

[PennEd]

He also said a lot of things about enduring to the end and not falling away. You must have those scriptures whited out in you Bible.

Nope. No white out. The WHOLE counsel of God must be adhered to.

Those verses you refer to have been posted, and gone over ad nauseum, probably even in this thread.

Doesn't in the slightest negate that it is Jesus that keeps us saved, NOT our ability to trust Him that keeps us saved.

 

[PennEd]

Right, He said He would keep us. Don't we have to trust Him and take Him at His word? How are we supposed to believe His word if we're not even allowed to exercise our own faith? Having faith in the Lord isn't a work. That's just ridiculous.

Talk about strawmen!!

This issue is WHAT, or better yet, WHO you have faith in.

Yourself, and your ability to continue to trust Him? Or that Jesus will keep you saved.

Can't have it both ways friend.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

The biggest conformity I see in the entire Bible is doing God's Will. That means you submit to God and refuse your own Will to do God's.

So, if I continually sin, am I in God's Will or my own?

This is why I don't understand those who believe they can sin and sin without remorse and God is good with it.

 

[HeIsHere]

No, because you either realize what God did for you and you live in harmony or you think I can get away with murder.

Which when we habitually sin, we are murdering Jesus on the Cross over and over again.

We actually are not.

God dealt with sin at the cross.

The old "get out of jail free card argument."

There are always consequences for sin, if you think laying on guilt is the way to live in Grace you would be wrong.

 

[cv5]

True!

But there's still a point where we know we are Saved and we also know it hurts God to keep sinning which is why we continually seek forgiveness.

The thing is.....we sinners have NO IDEA in comprehending (let alone "counting" like doing sums on an abacus) each and every one of our sins day in and day out. There is NO realistic capacity to repent of every one of them.

Martin Luther tried though. He really did.

 

[Edify]

Trusting in the Lord IS living by faith. It is not a past feat of faith alone.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

We actually are not.

God dealt with sin at the cross.

The old "get out of jail free card argument."

There are always consequences for sin, if you think laying on guilt is the way to live in Grace you would be wrong.

Grace is only a time period for the Gentiles. Once the time of the Gentiles have been fulfilled there will be no more Grace.

Paul tells us when he's getting older that he never reached a point of being perfect. But what he shows us here is he tried even with God's help to become more like Christ.

Those who sin without remorse are not trying to be like Christ. Paul had remorse.