Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[Runningman]

Several of us have explained the plan of salvation several times.

No they didn't. They said, in summary, and I paraphrase: "this is the plan for salvation! i'm saved! But I am still a sinner and if I become a habitual sinner then I was never saved to begin with."

Meaning that anyone who sins by some unspecified metric and the sin becomes habitual then they were never saved to begin with. In that case, OSAS can't even say who is saved since it's safe to say that we fall short of God's glory at least daily.

The Bible says you can know you're saved by who your faith is in. If someone sins they can return to God in confession, repentance, and resume fellowship.

And by the way the repentance that leads to salvation is a ONE time event in a moment in time.

It isn't.

The price for all sin is paid.

Agreed.

We can grieve the Spirit but the the status of "justified" cannot be revoked because we did nothing to earn it nor can we do anything to loose it.

You're justified by faith. Your faith is (or should be) believing what God says is true and then following those directions such as being led by the Spirit.

 

[cv5]

True, I think you and I are mostly in agreement.

The fatal flaw in their argument is that when or/if a OSAS adherent backslides (may God lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil, amen), and they admit sinning is something everyone does, then they must assume the position that they were never saved to begin with and therefore can't clearly explain how one is saved at all. In that way, OSAS is actually the anti-thesis of grace and salvation.

On the other hand, those who believe salvation can be lost, or OSAS is false, normally posit that it's willful continued sin that separates someone from God, but confession, repentance, and being led by the Spirit of God, that immediately brings someone back into God's grace.



OSAS is TULIP repackaged and rebranded in many regards. I don't buy it either.

Schizophrenic salvation? It's not in my bible.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Yet salvation is available to all for the asking.

IMO, pharaoh was provided a vast array of irrefutable signs whereby he had every opportunity to repent. Pharoah hardened his heart and refused. So it is with the unsaved. A lost opportunity.

On the other hand, the saved see and believe. And depart from Egypt. And don't turn back.

The thing is, fallen man is ALREADY condemned. God does not need to exert His will in the least to accomplish anything in that regard.

Setting philosophy aside, all anyone has to do is cry out to God for mercy and forgiveness and ask to receive the full and free forgiveness provided by the completed work of His Son.

Some do not want it.....because the find it offensive and they will not yield just as pharaoh found Israelites and the God of Israel offensive and did not yield.

See, I agree with what you are saying here. But TULIP teaches that only the elect will see salvation. And that certain cannot be saved, that God created a people for destruction and I don't believe that's what the word teaches.

 

[cv5]

See, I agree with what you are saying here. But TULIP teaches that only the elect will see salvation. And that certain cannot be saved, that God created a people for destruction and I don't believe that's what the word teaches.

Don't get obsessed with TULIP. It is nothing more than commentary.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Don't get obsessed with TULIP. It is nothing more than commentary.

Eek, ok, but still can't get past the idea that some were made for destruction. That doesn't seem like God to me.

 

[cv5]

Eek, ok, but still can't get past the idea that some were made for destruction. That doesn't seem like God to me.

Because He isn't....

Jhn 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Luk 15:11
And he said, A certain man had two sons:

 

[cv5]

The Bible says you can know you're saved by who your faith is in. If someone sins they can return to God in confession, repentance, and resume fellowship.

Did you mean resume salvation? Because that has been your position according to all of your earlier posts.

My questions still stand:

2) does one become reborn, die, and then reborn again according Scripture?

3) does Jesus and marry his Bride, divorce her, then remarry her.....perhaps multiple times according to Scripture?

Still waiting for an answer......

 

[HeIsHere]

It isn't.

Therein is the problem.

Jesus tells us otherwise.

3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit.

Born from above, a one time event, just like the natural birth.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Therein is the problem.

Actually, the problem is thinking repentance is something you do once and forget it. It has to be ongoing. That's not my opinion, it's scripture.

"Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted;" 2 Corinthians 7:9-10

And in Revelation Jesus tells the churches they need to repent. He wasn't telling them that so they would get born again; He told them that because they already were born again but had gotten off track.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Actually, the problem is thinking repentance is something you do once and forget it. It has to be ongoing. That's not my opinion, it's scripture.

"Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted;" 2 Corinthians 7:9-10

And in Revelation Jesus tells the churches they need to repent. He wasn't telling them that so they would get born again; He told them that because they already were born again but had gotten off track.

actually that is a problem

How many times do you think you have to repent of the same thing over and over before you start becoming a hypocrite?

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Actually, the problem is thinking repentance is something you do once and forget it. It has to be ongoing. That's not my opinion, it's scripture.

"Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted;" 2 Corinthians 7:9-10

And in Revelation Jesus tells the churches they need to repent. He wasn't telling them that so they would get born again; He told them that because they already were born again but had gotten off track.

Matthew 11:20-21 20 Then Jesus began to denounce the towns in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

 

[ResidentAlien]

actually that is a problem

How many times do you think you have to repent of the same thing over and over before you start becoming a hypocrite?

LOL, I'm not interested in you hypotheticals. I stick with scripture.

 

[Cameron143]

actually that is a problem

How many times do you think you have to repent of the same thing over and over before you start becoming a hypocrite?

We're all hypocrits to one degree or another and sometimes sins can remain with us or pop back up at later times. What I would be much more concerned about is the lack of confession or calling sin no longer sin.

 

[cv5]

actually that is a problem

How many times do you think you have to repent of the same thing over and over before you start becoming a hypocrite?

7 X 70?

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

We're all hypocrits to one degree or another and sometimes sins can remain with us or pop back up at later times. What I would be much more concerned about is the lack of confession or calling sin no longer sin.

But I think there is a difference between failing and living in sin. Being tempted and giving in to sin and going back into the lifestyle. I had a friend that was an alcoholic. When things in his life would begin to pressure him, and get him down sometimes he would fail and drink for the weekend. He would feel guilty and repent when he sobered up. He passed away and I have no doubt he is heaven today. Put that story against my former pastor friend left his wife and family and married the women he committed adultery with. From the outside I don't see a repentant heart. But aside from repentance, I do not believe he would enter heaven if the Lord returned today. I believe he has left the faith and is living in sin, openly. I do not believe you lose your salvation, I believe you can walk away from your salvation.

 

[Cameron143]

But I think there is a difference between failing and living in sin. Being tempted and giving in to sin and going back into the lifestyle. I had a friend that was an alcoholic. When things in his life would begin to pressure him, and get him down sometimes he would fail and drink for the weekend. He would feel guilty and repent when he sobered up. He passed away and I have no doubt he is heaven today. Put that story against my former pastor friend left his wife and family and married the women he committed adultery with. From the outside I don't see a repentant heart. But aside from repentance, I do not believe he would enter heaven if the Lord returned today. I believe he has left the faith and is living in sin, openly. I do not believe you lose your salvation, I believe you can walk away from your salvation.

There is certainly a difference between failing and repenting and failing and no longer repenting or even calling sin sin. That was the point I was attempting to make ever so poorly.
As far as leaving the faith and its causes we disagree but I like you anyway.

 

[cv5]

actually that is a problem

How many times do you think you have to repent of the same thing over and over before you start becoming a hypocrite?

A thought just crossed my mind. Paul wrote 2/3 of a chapter (Rom 7) where he is indicting HIMSELF as a hypocrite.
If you analyze Rom 7:14 thru 24, Paul says "I" around 26 times!!!

I think it's safe to say that it is part of our pilgrimage here. A matter to be wrestled into submission, with a view to be overcomers.

Phl 3:12
Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.

Phl 3:13
Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead,

Phl 3:14
I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

 

[Ted01]

Lol okay thank you. I’m sorry if I was a bit defensive. These forums bring that out in people and being setup for a one-two punch (so to speak) is a thing when discussing the Bible with people who already have a different perspective.

Anyway, when I read about grace in the Bible, a Greek/Hebrew lexicon, or an English dictionary I don’t see that it’s described as unconditional or unmerited. I see grace as just meaning favor or goodwill.

For example, if grace was truly unmerited favor then that would mean Universalism. There would be literally no prerequisites for salvation, no faith required, absolutely nothing. All that would exist is sinners standing in hostility toward God receiving grace. That would truly be unmerited favor.

So if I may ask, do you see Universalism as Biblically viable?

Hey RM,
I've been thinking about your definition of Grace and was wondering... you're saying that grace is favor, pretty straight-forward. Is this correct? I mean, that the grace that you or I might show to a person is pretty much the same thing that God would show to us?
Is that close?

And if so, when we add the word "unmerited" you seem to be equating it to "unconditional"? And that sorta confounds me. I mean, in my head, when I say that things are unmerited, I simply mean that I'm giving the grace that I choose to give because I want to... not because the other person did anything to deserve it. Does that make sense?

Whereas, "unconditional" tends to mean that I give the grace without any conditions/stipulations. Regardless of how the person behaves or whatever.

Wondering if you would want to speak to/about my musings?

 

[cv5]

But I think there is a difference between failing and living in sin. Being tempted and giving in to sin and going back into the lifestyle. I had a friend that was an alcoholic. When things in his life would begin to pressure him, and get him down sometimes he would fail and drink for the weekend. He would feel guilty and repent when he sobered up. He passed away and I have no doubt he is heaven today. Put that story against my former pastor friend left his wife and family and married the women he committed adultery with. From the outside I don't see a repentant heart. But aside from repentance, I do not believe he would enter heaven if the Lord returned today. I believe he has left the faith and is living in sin, openly. I do not believe you lose your salvation, I believe you can walk away from your salvation.

There is a big big difference between walking the wrong path and stumbling on the right one. I suspect this so-called pastor is in view in verses 18 and 19.

Phl 3:17
Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern.

Phl 3:18
For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:

Phl 3:19
whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things.

 

[Runningman]

Therein is the problem.

Jesus tells us otherwise.

3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit.

Born from above, a one time event, just like the natural birth.

Ah, there’s the root cause of the problem.

Repenting more than once, or as often as necessary, is Biblical.

Jesus speaking to a church said this.

Revelation 2
5Therefore, keep in mind how far you have fallen. Repent and perform the deeds you did at first. But if you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.

Do you want to find out what it means for Jesus to come to your church and remove their lampstand from its place? Personally, I’d rather keep in mind how far I had fallen, repent, and perform the deeds I did at first.