Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[HeIsHere]

I would agree. But Judas recieved the full gospel message. and he believed, but did not believe. Same with most of the jews.. Many of them believed, but their true faith was in the law.. so while they believed, they added the law (works) to the gospel..

this is what I call mere belief.. Also in james. they claimed to believe, yet did not have works.. Even demons believe.. That is mere belief but a lack of repentance. .

I was not thinking of Judas specifically but when did he receive the full gospel message?

Again until Jesus completed the full act of atonement was anyone saved under the new covenant, I would have to say no, Thomas being a good example in John 20.

Judas was not saved because no one was "saved" yet.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

You have your name blotted out when you die in unbelief.

You did not provide any scripture. Your argument is with John. He said they left because they were never of us. if they were of us they would have stayed, but to prove they were never truly of us, they left.

who are they? People who claimed to be part of us (the church) but are now non believers. anti-christs. who reject the salvation that they could have had.

Eternal life is eternal.. Its based 0n Gods reputation. if one is lost after being saved. then Gods reputation is flawed..

Yes, I did provide Scripture. Must I do it again? It seems so. We all agree on this point, nothing externally can separate us from God, but we can walk away from salvation.

“Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition (destruction); but of them that believe to the saving of the soul (Hebrews 10:38-39).”

20 For if after they whave escaped the apollutions of the world bthrough the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again centangled therein, and overcome, dthe latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For eit had been better for them not fto have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, gto turn from hthe holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true iproverb, kThe dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her lwallowing in the mire.

Philippians says "
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.


aStand fast therefore in bthe liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with cthe yoke dof bondage. 2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that eif ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, fthat he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 gChrist is hbecome of no effect unto you, gwhosoever of you are justified by the law; iye are fallen from grace.

Peter says "
17 Ye therefore, beloved, useeing ye know these things before, vbeware lest ye also, being led away with the error of wthe wicked, xfall from your own stedfastness.


But I keep control of my body, and bring it into subjection, lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.


Col. says
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister


James “Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.”


I believe once you are saved you're always saved IF you remain in Him.

3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine

“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

Romans 11 22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive
tree!

Galatians 6:1 Brothers,1 oif anyone is caught in any transgression, pyou who are spiritual should restore him in qa spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted.

Remain, stand, hold fast, continue. You cannot ignore these verses. OSAS is only true in the sense that not external force can keep you from the love of God. That does not mean you cannot walk away from salvation.

 

[HeIsHere]

I would agree. But Judas recieved the full gospel message. and he believed, but did not believe. Same with most of the jews.. Many of them believed, but their true faith was in the law.. so while they believed, they added the law (works) to the gospel..

this is what I call mere belief.. Also in james. they claimed to believe, yet did not have works.. Even demons believe.. That is mere belief but a lack of repentance. .

Yeah James is always misunderstood as being a letter about works proving salvation, that was not his point, his point was works should
prove salvation.....BIG difference.


"Even demons believe" is the point of an objector that James is addressing not a teaching from him.

 

[Runningman]

Here plain English:

Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness
Romans 4:4-5

You think you have to just believe in God and that’s it? Let me remind you, even devils do that. The verse you provided doesn’t represent the point he was making. He was talking about Abraham who was righteous without circumcision. What Paul didn’t mention is this: after circumcision came the Israelites were absolutely required to do it 100%, no exceptions, because their work was required for righteousness.

The main things that have changed in the New Covenant is that the temple laws are gone and animal sacrifices are no more. Now there is a perfect sacrifice, Jesus, who can atone for sins permanently. Provided you have faith in him, are repentant, and persist in being obedient to God then you won’t be a branch that is cut off. It’s absolutely quid pro quo.

Romans 11
17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

I've noticed that ALL false religions and cults that promote salvation by works strongly oppose OSAS, which has always been a major red flag for me.

Well here's the issue, I don't believe in works to be saved. But I do believe you can walk away from salvation.

For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[a] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


That is not talking about salvation. God loves you, even if you choose to walk away. There are too many verses that say remain, stand, persevere, contend. No one can outwardly take away your salvation. But you can walk away, you have the free will to walk away.

What would you say of the comment I shared earlier "

A preacher of OSAS once said “If I killed my wife and mother and debauched a thousand women, I couldn’t go to Hell.” He even said, “I couldn’t go to Hell if I wanted to.”

Would you not consider that a misuse of the grace of God, in the extreme? And taken to the extreme is this not what OSAS teaches?

And then if you say " well he was never saved in the first place" you are judging that person. You are treating God's grace with disdain.

 

[Mem]

Y'all can do all the work you want. I'm resting.

Hebrews 4:3a

3Now we who have believed enter that rest.

 

[Cameron143]

Y'all can do all the work you want. I'm resting.

Hebrews 4:3a

3Now we who have believed enter that rest.

I got a salvation hammock.

 

[mailmandan]

A preacher of OSAS once said “If I killed my wife and mother and debauched a thousand women, I couldn’t go to Hell.” He even said, “I couldn’t go to Hell if I wanted to.”

Would you not consider that a misuse of the grace of God, in the extreme? And taken to the extreme is this not what OSAS teaches?

There are extremes on both sides of the issue. I don't hold to that preacher's view and find that statement ridiculous.

 

[SonLight_Wolf]

A preacher of OSAS once said “If I killed my wife and mother and debauched a thousand women, I couldn’t go to Hell.” He even said, “I couldn’t go to Hell if I wanted to.”

I wonder if OSAS believers would defend that comment.

James 5:19, 20

“Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.”


2 Peter 2:20-22. It says, “For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: ‘A dog returns to his own vomit,’ and, ‘a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.’”


1 Corinthians 10:12. “Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.”


1 John 1:7. “But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.” If is a conditional statement.

Firstly, you're wrong.
You didn't know a preacher who said that.
No preacher on earth would ever say that. Period.
A fake who claims to be a preacher would say that.

The reason no actual preacher would say that is because those who are in Christ do not make a habit of sinning.

What is further evidence of lies and fakes is the idea Jesus entire ministry was a fraud.

Jesus died to give us eternal life. The reason we have eternal life through Christ is because we are saved from our sins that unredeemed in Christ assured the second death.

Christians are saved by God's grace through faith. This is not of ourselves but is through the grace of God.

Just as no actual pastor would say what you claim was said, no actual born again Christian insists they are not saved. Because they cannot claim to believe in Jesus and the gospel and then insist none of what the gospel says is true.

Twisting scripture isn't the gospel. It's twisting scripture. And is in service to the enemy whom the actual gospel defeats.

For those who insist they are not saved eternally, you are right.

 

[Cameron143]

I got a salvation hammock.

Marvel not at this. I'm still waiting on my cheap kids to get my salvation barometric chamber for Father's Day.

 

[SonLight_Wolf]

Marvel not at this. I'm still waiting on my cheap kids to get my salvation barometric chamber for Father's Day.

That's a visual. (⁠•⁠‿⁠•⁠)

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

There are extremes on both sides of the issue. I don't hold to that preacher's view and find that statement ridiculous.

And I am not accusing you of believing it, but I have had people say to me "my name is on the roll (church roll) I'm good. They never attend church, they don't change their lifestyle, they live as they please but they said a prayer once, repeated what the pastor said, now they are saved. Nor do I believe to the other extreme that if you sneeze you're backslidden. I believe there is a middle ground. Once you are saved, you're saved, no external forces can separate you from God, but you can walk away.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Firstly, you're wrong.
You didn't know a preacher who said that.
No preacher on earth would ever say that. Period.
A fake who claims to be a preacher would say that.
.

Quote "A preacher of OSAS once said". Where does that say I knew a preacher who??! Mind putting words in my mouth, thank you. Bill Foster, The Weekly Worker, March 12, 1959 Now you do your due diligence, find the man and if he's still alive tell him what you think of him.

Christians are saved by God's grace through faith. This is not of ourselves but is through the grace of God.

I never said I believe in works salvation. We are saved by grace for good works.

Twisting scripture isn't the gospel. It's twisting scripture..

Scripture was taken straight from the Word. Verses were given.

 

[SonLight_Wolf]

Quote "A preacher of OSAS once said". Where does that say I knew a preacher who??! Mind putting words in my mouth, thank you. Bill Foster, The Weekly Worker, March 12, 1959 Now you do your due diligence, find the man and if he's still alive tell him what you think of him.




I never said I believe in works salvation. We are saved by grace for good works.



Scripture was taken straight from the Word. Verses were given.

I didn't put words in your mouth. That's your source and you claimed to know a preacher.... Now you named them.

My post stands. If he's still breathing and browses the net he'll find what I think of him. This site appears in search engines and its posts are searchable by key words. Now that you have named him it will make it easier to find this thread.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

I didn't put words in your mouth. That's your source and you claimed to know a preacher.... Now you named them.

Quote "A preacher of OSAS once said... Both times I gave the same comment. Where did I claim to know him?

A preacher of OSAS once said

Point out where I said I knew him, I'll wait.

Bill Foster, The Weekly Worker, March 12, 1959

I named where the quote is found. No where did I claim I knew them. So again, do not put words in my mouth that I did not say.

My post stands.

No, it doesn't. What you're saying is untrue. I did not claim to know the person. Twice I have said that and you are insisting on a false claim.

If he's still breathing and browses the net he'll find what I think of him. This site appears in search engines and its posts are searchable by key words. Now that you have named him it will make it easier to find this thread.

You said no pastor would say that, I gave you the quote and the name of the person that reportedly said it. It's on you to prove it wasn't said, as per your claim.

 

[Cameron143]

And I am not accusing you of believing it, but I have had people say to me "my name is on the roll (church roll) I'm good. They never attend church, they don't change their lifestyle, they live as they please but they said a prayer once, repeated what the pastor said, now they are saved. Nor do I believe to the other extreme that if you sneeze you're backslidden. I believe there is a middle ground. Once you are saved, you're saved, no external forces can separate you from God, but you can walk away.

Do you not believe that once God sets His affections upon you that He has any intention on letting you go? Is not even the chastening hand upon our spiritual backsides designed to bring us into more intimate knowledge and relationship with Him?
One can walk away from God, but when God truly enters the life and heart of an individual, He does so in faithfulness. It is not the faithfulness of the believer that secures the relationship, but the faithfulness of God. It is He who began the work, and it is He who will preserve it.
For those truly in Christ, nothing will separate them from the love of God which is demonstrated to us in the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Magenta]

Y'all can do all the work you want. I'm resting.

Hebrews 4:3a

3Now we who have believed enter that rest.

Matthew 11:28-30

 

[Magenta]

I do not think it is about shallow belief which keeps being promoted on here,

The people I usually see promoting this are the nay sayers.

To whom do you refer?

 

[SonLight_Wolf]

Quote "A preacher of OSAS once said... Both times I gave the same comment. Where did I claim to know him?

A preacher of OSAS once said

Point out where I said I knew him, I'll wait.

Bill Foster, The Weekly Worker, March 12, 1959

I named where the quote is found. No where did I claim I knew them. So again, do not put words in my mouth that I did not say.





No, it doesn't. What you're saying is untrue. I did not claim to know the person. Twice I have said that and you are insisting on a false claim.





You said no pastor would say that, I gave you the quote and the name of the person that reportedly said it. It's on you to prove it wasn't said, as per your claim.

I'll add, you claimed to know of a preacher. Happy?

My post stands. You don't know of a preacher. Because an actual preacher doesn't believe that.

Lastly, it's your claim! You do your due diligence and prove your claim. Giving a reference to where others can find the claim isn't how it works.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Do you not believe that once God sets His affections upon you that He has any intention on letting you go? Is not even the chastening hand upon our spiritual backsides designed to bring us into more intimate knowledge and relationship with Him?

No, but I'm not talking about His intent, I'm talking about man having free will. I believe God calls to an individual until the day they die. But God can love you all the way to hell. You can make that choice.

One can walk away from God, but when God truly enters the life and heart of an individual, He does so in faithfulness. It is not the faithfulness of the believer that secures the relationship, but the faithfulness of God. It is He who began the work, and it is He who will preserve it.
For those truly in Christ, nothing will separate them from the love of God which is demonstrated to us in the Lord Jesus Christ.

I have friends that believe OSAS to different degrees. This is what I find so of amusing. They would say if a person who was saved walks away from the truth, they were never saved in the first place. I would say that that person is backslidden, aren't they both in the same state? Sometimes it seems to me in this debate we are saying the same thing in a different way. But with these friends I have never lost fellowship, called each other names or questioned each others salvation. I'm not seeing the same here from some people, that's sad.