Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[Runningman]

Ok....well, I hope you are being serious....the context was sanctification and discipleship, Not the dictionary meaning of the word = “student” or “learner.” or “follower,” behind those terms people can turn away.

They can and do turn away under those terms and that's Biblical.

John 6
66From that time on many of His disciples turned back and no longer walked with Him.

The point you jumped in and tried to twist was discipleship in sanctification, Being conformed to the image of Christ, that can't happen until you are made a new creation in Christ, that's why Jesus said you must be born again

I didn't twist anything, you did. You said salvation comes before discipleship in post #2470 and it doesn't. A disciple can preach the gospel and save those who will accept it:

Mark 6
7Then Jesus called the Twelve to Him and began to send them out two by two, giving them authority over unclean spirits. 8He instructed them to take nothing but a staff for the journey—no bread, no bag, no money in their belts— 9and to wear sandals, but not a second tunic.
10And He told them, “When you enter a house, stay there until you leave that area. 11If anyone will not welcome you or listen to you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that place, as a testimony against them.”
12So they set out and preached that the people should repent. 13They also drove out many demons and healed many of the sick, anointing them with oil.

 

[ThewindBlows]

I didn't twist anything, you did. You said salvation comes before discipleship in post #2470 and it doesn't. A disciple can preach the gospel and save those who will accept it:

The context you jumped in on was mixing sanctification and discipleship, And discipleship in sanctification! you just took discipleship and applied a your own context to it, I was specifically talking about our discipleship in our sanctification, but that there is no way you can understand because you don't think it is possible today or in this world, But like i keep telling you today is the day of salvation, When that is applied you receive sanctification, and start your discipleship of being conformed to the image of Jesus, That's discipleship in sanctification that doesn't happen until you are born again, If you dont apply context you can try and make things say whatever you want

1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption

Jesus is our Sanctification if you are born again, and Jesus said you must be born again

 

[Runningman]

The context you jumped in on was mixing sanctification and discipleship, And discipleship in sanctification! you just took discipleship and applied a your own context to it, I was specifically talking about our discipleship in our sanctification, but that there is no way you can understand because you don't think it is possible today or in this world, But like i keep telling you today is the day of salvation, When that is applied you receive sanctification, and start your discipleship of being conformed to the image of Jesus, That's discipleship in sanctification that doesn't happen until you are born again, If you dont apply context you can try and make things say whatever you want

1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption

Jesus is our Sanctification if you are born again, and Jesus said you must be born again

We agree on some points but mostly agree to disagree I guess. Im starting to see that OSAS lives in a different universe than normal Christianity. We can’t easily see things the same way. Thanks for sharing your beliefs though.

 

[ThewindBlows]

We agree on some points but mostly agree to disagree I guess. Im starting to see that OSAS lives in a different universe than normal Christianity. We can’t easily see things the same way. Thanks for sharing your beliefs though

Where did OSAS come from? you keep bringing it up, "Normal" Christianity like the new Covenant in Jesus Blood? The forgiveness of sins through his blood? been born again into Gods family as a child of God, Being a new creation in Christ, Having Christ in you, The kingdom of God within you, none of these things are normal, in fact I would say they are Holy because they come from God

But no we cant see things the same way because you say its not available in this lifetime or in this world, I am saying its available to anyone at anytime if they come to God with faith in Jesus and ask him to save them, God takes that faith and gives the gift of righteousness = Jesus, but how many profess normal Christianity that are still dead in trespass and sin, how many say Jesus saves but.....and then add a list of things they think they can do to match the sacrifice he made hoping to earn salvation at the end

Jesus is the Gift, Jesus is Salvation, Jesus is eternal Life, You receive Jesus by grace through faith, You are made a new creation in Christ, Christ lives in you and you have the kingdom of god inside you, Christ in you the hope of Glory

Any questions feel free to ask, I run these new testaments aspects passed you to see what gets your attention because you are not familiar with them yet, ill keep sharing as long as you keep quoting me

 

[Runningman]

Where did OSAS come from? you keep bringing it up, "Normal" Christianity like the new Covenant in Jesus Blood? The forgiveness of sins through his blood? been born again into Gods family as a child of God, Being a new creation in Christ, Having Christ in you, The kingdom of God within you, none of these things are normal, in fact I would say they are Holy because they come from God

But no we cant see things the same way because you say its not available in this lifetime or in this world, I am saying its available to anyone at anytime if they come to God with faith in Jesus and ask him to save them, God takes that faith and gives the gift of righteousness = Jesus, but how many profess normal Christianity that are still dead in trespass and sin, how many say Jesus saves but.....and then add a list of things they think they can do to match the sacrifice he made hoping to earn salvation at the end

The New Testament says the gift of eternal life is inherited in the age to come.

Now, we can have the assurance of eternal life now and know it for certain because God is faithful to our requirement to keep the faith through all of life’s trials up to and including martyrdom.

If there’s any verse that says we have eternal life right now at this very second then that would be a different matter all together and I would stop discussing this. Since eternal life is gained at the resurrection, I know that I should keep discussing this.

As far as I’ve seen there nothing that explicitly says that right now someone becomes immortal immediately upon the condition of their saving faith.

If someone gets the irrevocable gift of eternal life now then there would be no requirements to live holy, persevere, endure, keep the faith to the end and even in abandoning the faith one would still have eternal life. This is definitely the major weakness of OSAS.

Jesus is the Gift, Jesus is Salvation, Jesus is eternal Life, You receive Jesus by grace through faith, You are made a new creation in Christ, Christ lives in you and you have the kingdom of god inside you, Christ in you the hope of Glory

This may sound like splitting hairs, but it isn’t. The New Testament doesn’t say Jesus is a gift as far as I’m aware and I looked. It says Jesus was a sacrifice and is now our High Priest.

I agree that those in Christ are a new creation and are born again. It isn’t that someone can become unborn, but rather they can die spiritually, again, if they are like a branch that’s cut off.

 

[ThewindBlows]

If there’s any verse that says we have eternal life right now at this very second then that would be a different matter all together and I would stop discussing this.

King James Bible
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

New International Version
Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

New Living Translation
“I tell you the truth, anyone who believes has eternal life.

English Standard Version
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.

Berean Standard Bible
Truly, truly, I tell you, he who believes has eternal life.

 

[ThewindBlows]

If someone gets the irrevocable gift of eternal life now then there would be no requirements to live holy, persevere, endure, keep the faith to the end and even in abandoning the faith one would still have eternal life. This is definitely the major weakness of OSAS.

2 Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

We all make mistakes, but if someone wanted to show the love and forgiveness they feel from God by doing that it would be disappointing, But God disciplines his children so you wont just get away with it, as for abandoning the faith? its not a term that is in scripture, but look

Jer 32:40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

 

[ThewindBlows]

This may sound like splitting hairs, but it isn’t. The New Testament doesn’t say Jesus is a gift as far as I’m aware and I looked. It says Jesus was a sacrifice and is now our High Priest.

The gift of God is eternal life, And It says only God is immortal, So the gift you need is life, And the Bible says Jesus is the Life

I agree that those in Christ are a new creation and are born again.

Good Start

It isn’t that someone can become unborn, but rather they can die spiritually, again, if they are like a branch that’s cut off.

Again? So you mean like in the Garden? where a spiritual death took place, Not if you bring in the cross of Christ and the one time sacrifice made for sin

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness

You cant kill what God has made alive, and Jesus wont lose any that his father has given to him, how do you propose ones kills a spirit you are going to exist somewhere

 

[Runningman]

King James Bible
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

New International Version
Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

New Living Translation
“I tell you the truth, anyone who believes has eternal life.

English Standard Version
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.

Berean Standard Bible
Truly, truly, I tell you, he who believes has eternal life.

As always, verses cherry picked and isolated from all context, can be mislead. Jesus is speaking of the resurrection, a future event:

John 6
53So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of Man, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[ThewindBlows]

[QUOTE="Runningman, post: 4964962, member: 294652"54Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.[/QUOTE]

Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day

 

[Runningman]

Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day

The context clears it up, it’s regards to eternal life in the resurrection.

Here’s more words by Jesus that prove it:

Luke 20
34Jesus answered, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35But those who are considered worthy to share in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage. 36In fact, they can no longer die, because they are like the angels. And since they are sons of the resurrection, they are sons of God.

Luke 18
29“Truly I tell you,” Jesus replied, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30will fail to receive many times more in this age—and in the age to come, eternal life.”

Matthew 19
29And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for the sake of My name will receive a hundredfold and will inherit eternal life.

long story short, you aren’t immortal right now and neither am I. It’s a gift for the age to come. The Bible proves it.

Really want to be sure? Find a single verse about the soul that is immortal unless God allows it, if you can. It doesn’t exist as far as I can see.

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

Ironically, Jn 6:54 proves the opposite, because the verb fτρώγων (trōgōn) for eats is in the present participle. In Mat 24:38, it is also in the present participle, and there it is translated "before the flood they were eating and drinking" clearly referring to continuous actions, not a one time thing. Here is the verse again.

"Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

This refers to the continual action of receiving the Lord's Body and Blood in Holy Communion.

In 6:56, the Lord says whoever does this, i.e. eat His flesh and drink His blood, which we do after justification, abides in Him.

"He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him."

And in John 15, He said the one who abides in Him will bear much fruit. But the one who doesn't would be cast out.

5“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you."

The conclusion is clear, after we believe and are baptized, we are born again or justified, by the Grace of God. And after this, by the Grace of God, we are called to abide in Him and persevere. And to do this, we Pray, do Good Works, receive Holy Communion, think of His Passion, Sacrifice, Sufferings and Death and strive to glorify Him in our lives. As we do this, we will not be cut off, but bear much fruit, remain in the Vine, and thus go to Heaven. But those who neglect all these things may be cut off.

Let's cut to the chase: we all know, I'm sure, some who once said they believed in Jesus and who no longer believe. If you are OSAS, in every case, you have to say: "they were never justified in the first place". That is very improbable. Many of them probably were justified, although some perhaps never were justified. But those who after justification fell away did so because they neglected sanctification, did not abide in Christ by continual holy Communion with Him, and did not pray for the Grace of perseverance, otherwise they would have persevered in the Faith, and thus by persevering, gained Salvation.

There are Biblical examples too, as Hebrews 6, Hebrews 10, 2 Pet 2 and many other passages make clear.

The Lord is clear: "The one who perseveres to the end will be saved". (Mat 24:13). This means justification and salvation are not the same. Salvation=Justification is the incorrect equation. Salvation = Justification by Faith + Perseverance in Faith.

Note that He did not say: "The one who is already saved will after that persevere to the end" as OSAS believers believe. #ThingsJesusneversaid.

God Bless.

 

[BreatheFocusBet]

What does it matter

He is talking about Isreal (saved and unsaved) vs gentile (saved)

He is telling the gentile church to not be puffed up. That God did not spare Israel. And let them be captured. He would not spell the gentile church if they fell away also. Which prophecy states they will

It has NOTHING to do with individual people

This could happen to the gentiles

Romans 11:25

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.

Romans 11:8-10

as it is written:

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,

eyes that could not see,

and ears that could not hear,

to this very day.”

And David says:

“May their table become a snare and a trap,

a stumbling block and a retribution to them.

May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,

and their backs be bent forever.”


Before this hardening, perhaps some could see and hear the truth, not that they were necessarily going to heaven if they died then so I repent and apologize for suggesting that. But that^ is what happened after - believing the truth seemed to be cutoff from them. And yes, it was addressed to the gentiles who were grafted in collectively. No, it was not necessarily speaking of the fate of the gentiles as an entire group (nor Israel for that matter).

Romans 11:7
What then? What Israel was seeking, it failed to obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened,

 

[ResidentAlien]

"This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men." Titus 3:8

 

[Grandpa]

You’re saying something other than what the Bible says. Jesus only denies people before His Father who deny Him before people. Therefore someone who is just born isn’t denying Jesus and they aren’t denied. This is conditional upon denial/rejection.

Matthew 10
33But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father in heaven.

This is the same thing ALL people who twist scripture do.

It SEEMS like MAYBE what you are saying is correct. But its not.

The problem is that if you are not ACTIVELY confessing Christ then you are denying Him. In ADDITION to actively denying Him.

So there is only 1 way to Confess Christ but there are MANY ways to deny Christ.


Which comes back to this VERY SIMPLE scripture.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


According to YOUR CONTRADICTION of scripture you have people who DON'T BELIEVE and are NOT condemned simultaneously. "Well its not their fault so they're not condemned".

There is ONLY 2 choices here. Believe + no condemnation or Don't Believe + condemnation. There is no Don't Believe + no condemnation like you are trying twist scripture to say.



So you are ABSOLUTELY incorrect. I am not saying ANYTHING against scripture. I am telling you Scripture, which is against your Imagination.

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

Found this article. Makes a good case from Hebrews 10, the verse and passage that was discussed earlier:

https://eternalcall.com/once-saved-always-saved/3-passages-that-contradict-once-saved-always-saved/

"
Hebrews 10:26-29
This passage is very strong objection against the false doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved and is contained in chapter 10 of the book of Hebrews. Let’s look at that passage:

Hebrews 10:26-29

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?​

The central intended message of the author is to warn from backsliding wilfully into a lifestyle of sin and from the consequences of such a fall in verses 27 and 29. This passage of scripture is packed with terms designating brethren who are already born again and on the way of salvation.

Notice the terms we already discussed above in verse 26. The author mentions sinning willfully after coming to the knowledge of the truth. Jesus Himself is that Truth as He Himself said:

John 14:6 – Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.​

As we have shown previously the term “knowing Christ” is used to design believers in a close fellowship with Christ through the fellowship of the Spirit.

Then the author mentions the consequences of falling away. He says that sinning willfully and deliberately will remove the once for all sacrifice of Christ on the cross and then there will remain no more sacrifice for sins but a certain fearful looking for judgment.

Verse 29 is the pinnacle of the passage and completely goes against the doctrine of OSAS. The author shows that insulting the Spirit of grace is worse than disobeying the Law of Moses of the Old Covenant. By so doing, the backslidden Christian is said to have deliberately chosen to trod under foot the Son of God. How can one do that unless they had access to the Son of God? One cannot put the Son under their feet or insult the Spirit of Grace unless they have Him.

The reborn brother who backslides deliberately is also counting the blood of the covenant by which he (the brother) was sanctified, an unholy thing. Sanctification is a process that is a work of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as we have also shown.

In light of the whole passage, it is clear that one can lose their salvation after being born again."

 

[HeIsHere]

But faith without works is not faith. Works are part of the faith.

Not everyone who says Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of God.

Which faith? Scripture speaks of faith in different contexts.

 

[HeIsHere]

But faith without works is not faith. Works are part of the faith.

Not everyone who says Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of God.

Read the passage, Jesus states "I never knew you."

Good works will not save, you need to be in Jesus and Jesus in you.

 

[HeIsHere]

Found this article. Makes a good case from Hebrews 10, the verse and passage that was discussed earlier:

https://eternalcall.com/once-saved-always-saved/3-passages-that-contradict-once-saved-always-saved/

"
Hebrews 10:26-29
This passage is very strong objection against the false doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved and is contained in chapter 10 of the book of Hebrews. Let’s look at that passage:

Hebrews 10:26-29

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,​

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.​

28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:​

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?​

The central intended message of the author is to warn from backsliding wilfully into a lifestyle of sin and from the consequences of such a fall in verses 27 and 29. This passage of scripture is packed with terms designating brethren who are already born again and on the way of salvation.

Notice the terms we already discussed above in verse 26. The author mentions sinning willfully after coming to the knowledge of the truth. Jesus Himself is that Truth as He Himself said:

John 14:6 – Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.​

As we have shown previously the term “knowing Christ” is used to design believers in a close fellowship with Christ through the fellowship of the Spirit.

Then the author mentions the consequences of falling away. He says that sinning willfully and deliberately will remove the once for all sacrifice of Christ on the cross and then there will remain no more sacrifice for sins but a certain fearful looking for judgment.

Verse 29 is the pinnacle of the passage and completely goes against the doctrine of OSAS. The author shows that insulting the Spirit of grace is worse than disobeying the Law of Moses of the Old Covenant. By so doing, the backslidden Christian is said to have deliberately chosen to trod under foot the Son of God. How can one do that unless they had access to the Son of God? One cannot put the Son under their feet or insult the Spirit of Grace unless they have Him.

The reborn brother who backslides deliberately is also counting the blood of the covenant by which he (the brother) was sanctified, an unholy thing. Sanctification is a process that is a work of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as we have also shown.

In light of the whole passage, it is clear that one can lose their salvation after being born again."

This interpretation contradicts other very clear scripture so therefore it is incorrect.


This is passage is a reference to life under the law in juxtaposition to life under grace.

Under the law "willful sin" was not covered by the blood of goats.
I really think to understand anything in Hebrews one has to have a good grounding in the Old Testament

 

[Lanolin]

I think ppl read their Bibles with their pages stuck together with glue skipping out the parts they dont like. Honestly.