RA,
What does it mean to be saved?
If a man is drowning and someone ""saves" him, does he drown at the same time?
Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked
- Thread starter ResidentAlien
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What does it mean to be saved?
If a man is drowning and someone ""saves" him, does he drown at the same time?
This is evidence:
Mark 6
7Then Jesus called the Twelve to Him and began to send them out two by two, giving them authority over unclean spirits. 8He instructed them to take nothing but a staff for the journey—no bread, no bag, no money in their belts— 9and to wear sandals, but not a second tunic.
10And He told them, “When you enter a house, stay there until you leave that area.11If anyone will not welcome you or listen to you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that place, as a testimony against them.”
12So they set out and preached that the people should repent. 13They also drove out many demons and healed many of the sick, anointing them with oil.
Mark 6 says they drove our demons and healed many of the sick. That’s evidence. Two by two means they were in pairs. That means since there were 12, there were 6 pairs.
Also let’s be clear about what evidence is:
“the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.”
That means based on the given information there is no reasonable doubt Judas didn’t cast out demons or heal the sick. Judas had spiritual grifts.
What are you seeing to the contrary?
No verses prove Judas was saved; quite the opposite! Jesus proclaimed him
a devil, unclean, and doomed to destruction. You deny the very words of Jesus.
The word know is also the same word as here:
John 10
14I am the good shepherd. I know My sheep and My sheep know Me,
Judas was a sheep of Jesus at one point, but was lost. Here’s the proof Judas was a sheep, if you don’t believe that:
Matthew 26
31Then Jesus said to them, “This very night you will all fall away on account of Me. For it is written:
‘I will strike the Shepherd,
and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.’
More impotent false accusations. It just bounces off of me now it’s so frequent on this forum.
An honest look at what I’ve been saying proves Judas was a believer at one point, promised eternal life, did miracles only a believer can do, but in the end (most likely) lost that salvation.
Sobering really. OSAS is in a panic I think, but don’t fear. Now is the time to understand what the truth is.
From scripture Judas never called Jesus Lord, So why do you think your opinion can claim things Judas' heart couldn't.
Salvation is not by works, so trying to pretend a christian can become unborn spiritually is just an attempt to take their faith off Christ to keep them saved, and put their faith in their own works to keep them saved, but as salvation is not by works and you can't undo a spiritual birth it is the new creation in Christ
I think for you it comes down to what you think Salvation is and what you think to believe means, and what you are trying to hide behind those terms
I never claimed any such thing. What you’re using is called a straw man argument.
I’m not pretending anything. What you’re using is called gas lighting.
You’re looking at it the wrong way and, again, I never made any such claims. If I make a claim I will absolutely back it up using the Bible when or if I need to.
There’s a difference between spiritual death and being spiritually unborn. If you are firmly rooted in the OSAS theology, you may be unable to see this, but spiritual rebirth doesn’t nullify the possibility of spiritual death; a completely scriptural doctrine.
That’s another another straw man. Why do you find it necessary to assign so many negative intentions to me? You want to demonize me to discredit me?
What do you think I’m hiding as I quote book, chapter, and verse in most of my replies?
Ok well, no more gas-lighting strawmen then, But where did OSAS theology come from? isn't that a strawman you erected? let's tear that down as well, so that leaves us with spiritual death, Have you heard of the gift of God being eternal life? So this gift that God gives = himself, and he said he would never leave or forsake us, so in John 14:16, see how it says will abide with you forever, So you have two options from your perspective, either eternal life doesn't mean eternal and forever doesn't mean forever or you have to conclude that God would either take the HS away or he would have to throw the HS into hell, neither are true so the problem is in your thinking
Then it comes back to
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
That takes me and you out of the equation, so whats left, No strawman answers
OSAS debunked is the topic of this thread.
The wages of sin are death, but those wages are not received by the unsaved until later. The gift of God is eternal life, but that gift isn’t inherited until later.
Matthew 19:29
29And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.
John 11:25,26
25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
Luke 18:30
30will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”
Luke 20:35,36
35But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.
Giving two options while ignoring all middle ground between the two extremes is called a false dichotomy.
That’s the option you’ve assigned to me. The irrevocable gift of eternal life is forever once the gift is received… in the age to come.
As I said, the options you’ve assigned to me are extreme and exist no where in my train of thought.
Let’s look at the verse you provided with context.
The prerequisite for the Spirit of truth being with someone forever is keeping Jesus’ commandments because of loving Him. This is clear because He compared the people of the world to the disciples who were followers of Jesus; the people of the world are not followers of Jesus nor keep His commandments.
John 14:15-17
15“If you love me, keep my commands.16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.
Have you read the parable of the lost sheep? There’s a big if in that passage.
Matthew 18:13,14
13And if he finds it, truly I tell you, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. 14In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should perish.
Thank you for not using a straw man this time. I hope you consider what I showed you. No many seem willing to understand it. Even though I used the Bible to prove Judas was a believer with spiritual gifts who most likely lost his salvation.
OSAS = easy believism
It's dangerous
Only proves you have an opinion, like everyone, nothing more. Shows clearly how prideful and willing you are to twist scripture . Fitting for one who has more faith in himself then the Son of God.
Ah I see you have begun your ad hominem phase of the discussion, along with others.
“Can’t prove them wrong so attack their character.”
I’ll leave you to that while I continue discussing the Bible. Enjoy.
God/Jesus knows everyone. You are so far off base as to what even simple words mean in their proper context...
Wow. Yeah, I am wowing again. You are completely lost on this one.
I don’t see how that applies to people who are either premature or just born. It says they were conformed to the ways of this world. People aren’t born conformed to the ways of this world.
No you’re the one who is way off base on this.
Jesus knew Judas personally, intimately, and completely in a shepherd to sheep relationship. As a result, Jesus one time said to Judas he would have eternal life.
That means Judas was either once saved always saved as you seem to believe or he lost his salvation. You’re not mature in the Word enough to accept that yet, but that’s okay! It’s all about growth and improvement. I study every day. I hope you will join me in study with an open mind and heart.