Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[Everlasting-Grace]

Nope. The Lord said in the Gospel of St. Matthew: "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." (Mat 5:16) and again in the Gospel of St. John: "8This is to My Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, proving yourselves to be My disciples." (Jn 15:8)

Those who work less glorify God less. Those who work more, with faith in Christ, glorify God more, and will be rewarded more. According to your opinion, those who faithfully follow Rom 2:6-7 are "focused on self not God". I disagree. They are focused on glorifying God, by living lives of holiness and good works which "glorify your Father in Heaven" as the Lord said.

Rom 2:6-7:

"6God “will repay each one according to his deeds(works)". 7To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life"

In Christ,
Xavier.

if we are not in christ (saved) we can not glorify God no matter how hard e work. The jews found that out when they were called out by Christ himself

Those who glorify God more or less, are in him (saved) the more we glorify him, the more reward. the less. the less reward. Our work will be tried by fire. but even the believer who glorified God the least will be saved even as through fire..

 

[Runningman]

Of course you can believe it. It seems reasonable from the human point of view that people can forfeit their salvation, but I lean more towards a different point of view, and that being that God’s ways are not our ways.

Judas lost his salvation after having believed so, given that fact, and the many other verses that prove it, salvation can be lost.

 

[Runningman]

if we are not in christ (saved) we can not glorify God no matter how hard e work. The jews found that out when they were called out by Christ himself

Those who glorify God more or less, are in him (saved) the more we glorify him, the more reward. the less. the less reward. Our work will be tried by fire. but even the believer who glorified God the least will be saved even as through fire..

Not exactly. Matthew 25:14-30 proves it’s possible to be an unprofitable servant (someone who doesn’t glorify God) and still end up being cast into outer darkness.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Not exactly. Matthew 25:14-30 proves it’s possible to be an unprofitable servant (someone who doesn’t glorify God) and still end up being cast into outer darkness.

the jews were given the talent. as has the whole world.

The people who are cast in outer darkness are those who did not believe

He who believes is not condemned

He who does not believe is condemned already.

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

Yes, I think between the time the Lord said, Twelve Thrones for the Twelve: "Jesus said to them, “I assure you: In the Messianic Age, when the Son of Man sits on His glorious throne, you who have followed Me will also sit on 12 thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel." (Mat 19:28) and the time, probably 1 or 2 years later, that, as it is written, Satan entered Judas, somewhere in between, Judas lost his Salvation. Imo, the example of Judas shows the promises of God are conditional on perseverance. The Eleven Apostles, by the Grace and Mercy of God, persevered in Faith until the end and obtained the Promise. Judas failed to persevere and thus did not obtain it, though the Lord promised it. Matthias or Paul got it instead.

if we are not in christ (saved) we can not glorify God no matter how hard e work.

If you mean justified, yes. So, let's come to the point, what is necessary and sufficient to be justified?

(1) Confessing Jesus is Lord: "no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit." (1 Cor 12:3)
(2) Confessing Jesus is Son of God: "Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God." (1 Jn 4:15)

Likewise, similar passages show (1) Believing in Christ as Lord and Savior (2) confessing/repenting of one's sin is both necessary and sufficient for forgiveness/justification. Without any doubt, believe in OSAS is not necessary for salvation.

Since many non-OSAS Christians confess (1)-(2), it follows that Non-OSAS Christians are Justified. If OSAS were objectively true, NON-OSASers would also be OSAS just by this confession. But since it is not, perseverance in confession is needed.

Those who glorify God more or less, are in him (saved) the more we glorify him, the more reward. the less. the less reward. Our work will be tried by fire. but even the believer who glorified God the least will be saved even as through fire.

Let's look at the passages:

1 Cor 3:13-15: "13his workmanship will be evident, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will prove the quality of each man’s work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive a reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as if through the flames."

The passage describes two kinds of Christians (1) the first group is completely sanctified and faithfully labors out of love for the Lord, as he had said he and Apollos did in vs 8. These Christians receive a Reward from the Lord. (2) the second group, after justification, neglects sanctification. They suffer loss, lose rewards, face chastisement/discipline from the Lord, and are "saved but only as if through the flames". Now, why would anyone choose the 2nd path rather than the first?

Any thoughts on that? True that we can neglect sanctification a little and still be saved, yet it is unwise imo to do that.

Again in 1 Pet 2:5-11, quoted earlier, it describes two possible paths Christians can take, and one has far greater rewards.

God Bless.

 

[Runningman]

the jews were given the talent. as has the whole world.

The people who are cast in outer darkness are those who did not believe

He who believes is not condemned

He who does not believe is condemned already.

The servants in Matthew 25:14-30 are believers. God’s servants aren’t unbelievers. These servants were cast into outer darkness. Consider this:

A subject of the kingdom isn’t an unbeliever.

Matthew 8:12
12But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

 

[Runningman]

Yes, I think between the time the Lord said, Twelve Thrones for the Twelve: "Jesus said to them, “I assure you: In the Messianic Age, when the Son of Man sits on His glorious throne, you who have followed Me will also sit on 12 thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel." (Mat 19:28) and the time, probably 1 or 2 years later, that, as it is written, Satan entered Judas, somewhere in between, Judas lost his Salvation. Imo, the example of Judas shows the promises of God are conditional on perseverance. The Eleven Apostles, by the Grace and Mercy of God, persevered in Faith until the end and obtained the Promise. Judas failed to persevere and thus did not obtain it, though the Lord promised it. Matthias or Paul got it instead.



If you mean justified, yes. So, let's come to the point, what is necessary and sufficient to be justified?

(1) Confessing Jesus is Lord: "no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit." (1 Cor 12:3)
(2) Confessing Jesus is Son of God: "Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God." (1 Jn 4:15)

Likewise, similar passages show (1) Believing in Christ as Lord and Savior (2) confessing/repenting of one's sin is both necessary and sufficient for forgiveness/justification. Without any doubt, believe in OSAS is not necessary for salvation.

Since many non-OSAS Christians confess (1)-(2), it follows that Non-OSAS Christians are Justified. If OSAS were objectively true, NON-OSASers would also be OSAS just by this confession. But since it is not, perseverance in confession is needed.



Let's look at the passages:

1 Cor 3:13-15: "13his workmanship will be evident, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will prove the quality of each man’s work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive a reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as if through the flames."

The passage describes two kinds of Christians (1) the first group is completely sanctified and faithfully labors out of love for the Lord, as he had said he and Apollos did in vs 8. These Christians receive a Reward from the Lord. (2) the second group, after justification, neglects sanctification. They suffer loss, lose rewards, face chastisement/discipline from the Lord, and are "saved but only as if through the flames". Now, why would anyone choose the 2nd path rather than the first?

Any thoughts on that? True that we can neglect sanctification a little and still be saved, yet it is unwise imo to do that.

Again in 1 Pet 2:5-11, quoted earlier, it describes two possible paths Christians can take, and one has far greater rewards.

God Bless.

If anyone is like how I was at first, they might think God is going to come down and force them (as in literally disable them) to abandon any and all of the unholy and unrighteous things one may willingly do. It doesn’t work like that.

God has given us choices to make, but He will aid us in this decision making process. There will be tests, failures, victories, chastisements, and praises from God depending on the outcome.

There should be a new, strong, convictions to abstain from unrighteous activities, but also the possibility to resist God’s Holy Spirit promptings. This is about obedience.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

The servants in Matthew 25:14-30 are believers. God’s servants aren’t unbelievers. These servants were cast into outer darkness. Consider this:

A subject of the kingdom isn’t an unbeliever.

Matthew 8:12
12But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

they can't be believers, if they were. they are not condemned

Only the unbeliever isw condemned ALREADY!

God does not make mistakes my friend, God knows a person heart. he will not be fooled into giving eternal life to someone and have to take it back.. Thats his reputation at stake

 

[Runningman]

they can't be believers, if they were. they are not condemned

Only the unbeliever isw condemned ALREADY!

God does not make mistakes my friend, God knows a person heart. he will not be fooled into giving eternal life to someone and have to take it back.. Thats his reputation at stake

Let’s not make any assumptions. The outer darkness is outside the kingdom of God. The kingdom of God is illuminated by God (Revelation 21:23), hence the area outside is darkness.

Are you sure getting eternal life means one is blissfully in the kingdom of heaven? Can someone have eternal life in the darkness as well, even if temporarily?

Ponder what it means to be a subject of the kingdom of God and still be cast into outer darkness.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Let’s not make any assumptions. The outer darkness is outside the kingdom of God. The kingdom of God is illuminated by God (Revelation 21:23), hence the area outside is darkness.

Are you sure getting eternal life means one is blissfully in the kingdom of heaven? Can someone have eternal life in the darkness as well, even if temporarily?

Ponder what it means to be a subject of the kingdom of God and still be cast into outer darkness.

Who is making assumptions?

I posted Jesus words

He who BELIEVES is NOT CONDEMNED
He who does not believe is CONDEMNED ALREADY

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

See how God takes delight in that one man on the whole earth who was blameless and upright before Him?

"5When a period of feasting had run its course, Job would make arrangements for them to be purified. Early in the morning he would sacrifice a burnt offering for each of them, thinking, “Perhaps my children have sinned and cursed God in their hearts.” This was Job’s regular custom.

6One day the angels a came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan b also came with them. 7The Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”

Satan answered the Lord, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.”

8Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”

Total Depravity and similar opinions are not correct. Total Depravity cannot explain the many passages like this.

And again, St. James the Apostle, when commenting on this passage, says those who endure/persevere are blessed.

"Indeed we count them blessed who endure. You have heard of the perseverance of Job and seen the end intended by the Lord—that the Lord is very compassionate and merciful." (James 5:11)

God Bless.

 

[Runningman]

Who is making assumptions?

I posted Jesus words

He who BELIEVES is NOT CONDEMNED
He who does not believe is CONDEMNED ALREADY

I posted Jesus’ words too. So why were the subjects of the kingdom cast into outer darkness if they weren’t condemned? Maybe there’s context in between single verses?

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

Judas lost his salvation after having believed

Not According To Scriptures:

Joh 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For
Jesus Knew from the beginning who they were that
believed not, and who should betray Him.

Joh 6:70 Jesus Answered them, Have not I chosen
you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
Joh 6:71 He Spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon:
for he it was that should betray Him, being one of the
twelve.

Conclusion: Makes Perfect Sense then that "believe And THEN believe
not" is Unscriptural:

1) Christ Has Always KNOWN them "that are His Own"
(2Ti 2:19; Eph 1:4-6)

NO MIDDLE GROUND [I once knew you, BUT now I don't],
putting words in Jesus' Mouth, Correct?:

2) Christ Has NEVER Known them that are "NOT His!"
(Mat 7:21-23), Correct?

Grace, Peace, And JOY In Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided(+ I and II)!

 

[Runningman]

Not According To Scriptures:

Joh 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For
Jesus Knew from the beginning who they were that
believed not, and who should betray Him.

Joh 6:70 Jesus Answered them, Have not I chosen
you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
Joh 6:71 He Spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon:
for he it was that should betray Him, being one of the
twelve.

Conclusion: Makes Perfect Sense then that "believe And THEN believe
not" is Unscriptural:

1) Christ Has Always KNOWN them "that are His Own"
(2Ti 2:19; Eph 1:4-6)

NO MIDDLE GROUND [I once knew you, BUT now I don't],
putting words in Jesus' Mouth, Correct?:

2) Christ Has NEVER Known them that are "NOT His!"
(Mat 7:21-23), Correct?

Grace, Peace, And JOY In Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided(+ I and II)!

This is the truth according to scripture, rightly divided.

The ones who did not believe are the followers who left Jesus:

John 6:66
66From that time on many of His disciples turned back and no longer walked with Him.

Peter confirmed later in that chapter the Judas is among those who believe:

John 6:69
69We believe and know that You are the Holy One of God.”

Judas received the spiritual gift of healing and the ability to cast out demons, from Jesus:

Matthew 10:1-4
1And calling His twelve disciples to Him, Jesus gave them authority over unclean spirits, so that they could drive them out and heal every disease and sickness.

2These are the names of the twelve apostles: first Simon, called Peter, and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; 3Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed Jesus.

Only believers can receive the gift to drive out demons and heal every disease and sickness:

Mark 16:17,18
17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In My name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;18they will pick up snakes with their hands, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not harm them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will be made well.”

So that means Judas was a believer who probably lost his salvation.

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

Doesn't the Parable of the Talents suggest that OSAS is not correct. the Third servant probably believed he was already saved, and just had to bury his talent in the ground to go to Heaven. The others used the talents God gave them (His Grace) to work for the Lord and bring forth abundant fruits for Him. [All 3 accepted Him as Lord, as it shows below.] But at His Return, the 1st and 2nd received both Salvation and Rewards, the 1st More, and the 2nd Less. The third, neither, but lost his soul, as we read in Mat 25-14-30:

"The Parable of the Talents
14 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. 15 And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey. 16 Then he who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and made another five talents. 17 And likewise he who had received two gained two more also. 18 But he who had received one went and dug in the ground, and hid his lord’s money. 19 After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them.

20 “So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.’ 21 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’ 22 He also who had received two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them.’ 23 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’

24 “Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’

26 “But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. 27 So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.

29 ‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’"

 

[Iconoclast]

There are three legs upon which OSAS stands or falls. Do these verses mean what they supposedly mean, or have they been misunderstood and misapplied? When we examine them next to other scriptures that clearly contradict them will they hold up? Let's see.

First, 1 John 2:19—"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."

The OSAS interpretation of this verse says that those who "went out" were never in Christ to begin with; they were never saved. However, I suggest there's another meaning that conforms very well with other scriptures. This view says that those who "went out" were indeed saved and in Christ at one point, but were simply not as committed as the others. It's in this sense that they were not "of us." These are those spoken of in the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:5-6): "Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil, but when the sun rose they were scorched. And since they had no root, they withered away." It sprang up, it had life to start with; but it "withered away."

Jesus' explanation of this passage is found in Matthew 13:20-21—"As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away."

Second is 1 John 3:6—"No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him."

This seems pretty cut and dried: if someone turns away back into sin they never knew Him. But we have to understand this in light of other scriptures that contradict it. Those who "never knew Him," never had a proper understanding of Him. This corresponds to the first group in the parable of the sower: "When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart." The seed was "sown in his heart," but was snatched away because of this person's lack of understanding.

Third is John 10:28—"I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand." I agree with this verse: no one can indeed snatch them out of His hand. However, the person himself can walk away. For this reason I prefer the phrase "forfeit salvation" to "lose salvation."

Now let's look at some scriptures that plainly talk about walking away and falling away. I'm not going to use Hebrews because Hebrews is fiercely objected to by those who advocate OSAS, even though is has many relevant warnings about falling away. But Hebrews isn't necessary—there are plenty of others.

2 Peter 2:20-21—"For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them."

This passage clearly illustrates a person who was once in Christ but who turned their back on Him. This shows a conscious action on the part of the one turning back. These verses correspond with Luke 9:26: "Jesus said to him, 'No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.' "

Matthew 24:10—"And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another."

1 Timothy 4:1—"Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons."

Matthew 24:13—"But the one who endures to the end will be saved."

Why say that those who endure to the end will be saved? If one cannot forfeit their salvation, why didn't He say "But all who have prayed the sinners prayer will be saved?"

Luke 9:26—"Jesus said to him, 'No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.' "

Already mentioned, Luke 9:26 is a clear warning from the Lord about falling away.

Come to understand what salvation is.
Then you will not be confused any longer.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Come to understand what salvation is.
Then you will not be confused any longer.

LOL, okay. I've been meaning to do that.

 

[cv5]

Not According To Scriptures:

Joh 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For
Jesus Knew from the beginning who they were that
believed not, and who should betray Him.

Joh 6:70 Jesus Answered them, Have not I chosen
you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
Joh 6:71 He Spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon:
for he it was that should betray Him, being one of the
twelve.

Conclusion: Makes Perfect Sense then that "believe And THEN believe
not" is Unscriptural:

1) Christ Has Always KNOWN them "that are His Own"
(2Ti 2:19; Eph 1:4-6)

NO MIDDLE GROUND [I once knew you, BUT now I don't],
putting words in Jesus' Mouth, Correct?:

2) Christ Has NEVER Known them that are "NOT His!"
(Mat 7:21-23), Correct?

Grace, Peace, And JOY In Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided(+ I and II)!

Indeed. God is not rolling dice when it comes to His elect. The elect are chosen before they are born.

Eph 1:4
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

 

[cv5]

24 “Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, ???I knew you??? to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’

It is quite evident (to me at least) that this one DID NOT know the Lord. Not really. So it is with those professing and not possessing.

The truly saved know the Lord's endless abundant graciousness, and serve Him out of a response of love.........not fear.

 

[cv5]

I posted Jesus’ words too. So why were the subjects of the kingdom cast into outer darkness if they weren’t condemned? Maybe there’s context in between single verses?

Why? This is why...

Jhn 10:26
“But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.

And no, Jesus is never late for an appointment to salvation, never forgets anyone, never loses His own, for He is the Good Shepherd.

Jhn 10:27
“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

Jhn 10:28
“And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

Jhn 10:29
“My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.