Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked
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FreeGrace2 said:
Sorry, but your reading skills are getting in your way of understanding anything...Apparently you haven't read the verse, or read it correctly...Says you. So I had to "school' you on the whole chapter, which you obviously had no clue about...It may not about about your reading skills, but actually your comprehension skills that are getting in the way.
You see, I study the Bible the way the Bereans did when Paul came to town.
Acts 17:11 -
Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
I have examined the Scriptures and I see that what YOU say isn't true. So I corrected the errors.
It is sad how many believers just don't like being corrected.
Sorry, but your reading skills are getting in your way of understanding anything...Apparently you haven't read the verse, or read it correctly...Says you. So I had to "school' you on the whole chapter, which you obviously had no clue about...It may not about about your reading skills, but actually your comprehension skills that are getting in the way.
You are free to your own opinion, of course, but given your "understanding" of the verses you've quoted, which DON'T say or mean what you ascribe to them, my opinion is that your reading or comprehension skills are needy.
So it is an insult to question one's reading/comprehension skills?
I think you don't like being corrected.
I'd say that arrogance and a haughty way is what leads to not like being corrected.
The words you share don't say or mean what you think they mean.
No, I'm trying to challenge you to realize that you aren't understanding the verses you have been quoting.
You did share verses. But you did not provide any verse that SAYS what you SAY.
You see, I study the Bible the way the Bereans did when Paul came to town.
Acts 17:11 -
Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
I have examined the Scriptures and I see that what YOU say isn't true. So I corrected the errors.
It is sad how many believers just don't like being corrected.
Salvation is a complex issue.
For example, was Paul saved when he wrote Philippians 1:19 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,
because why is he saying that preaching and disputes will work out to his salvation if he is already saved?
Also what about the believers in Philippi, were they saved? If so why does Paul write this:
Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
The deceitful teachers will try to make it sound like salvation is a once for all thing that happens when you first come to the Lord. If that is the case then this verse by Paul makes no sense,
1Thessalonians 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Why would you hope for something you already have, and why would he tell you that we have been appointed to obtain salvation in the future if we have already obtained it?
So don't allow anyone to tell you this is a simple yes or no question about what happened 20 or 30 years ago. There is clearly much more to it than that.
2Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
We have been chosen to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth. There are two aspects here, you must believe, and you must be immersed into the Spirit. Hence, believe and be baptized and you will be saved.
So then there is one very key principle: Jesus is Lord.
Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
If you want to be saved you must obey Jesus. It is simple. You must obey the gospel of your salvation. You must obey the apostle's fellowship. It is a process that takes a lifetime. Yes our initial experience of believing the truth is a salvation experience. But every single experience we have of obeying the Lord Jesus is a salvation experience. Every moment that we are immersed into the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is a sanctifying experience.
1Peter 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
Let's be clear, the end of our faith is the salvation of our souls. We don't begin the Christian life with the salvation of our souls. That salvation experience is in our spirit and if you let that seed grow and spread it will spread to your soul.
Jude 3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
This is what is going on in this thread. We want to talk about salvation and yet it is needful to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered.
You have not answered any of my questions. Which Bible verse that I have referenced concerning salvation do you object to?
No, it is not.
Salvation:
Mark 16:16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.
Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.
Acts 412 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."
Acts 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'
Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
Rom 10:9, 10 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.
2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
Eternal Life:
John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord
1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.
Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.
The Greek word for "salvation" means "to deliver/rescue/save from some danger". Here, of course Paul was saved. He was writing as an apostle. He was referring to deliverance of some kind.
Yes, for the same reason as above. In fact, here Paul is referring to progressive sanctification, or spiritual growth.
The Lord Himself taught that. Why would you call the Lord a "deceitful teacher".
Read John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:40, 47.
Being baptized in order for the remissions of to be saved.
You posted
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
So please go back to my responses to you.
I asked you that if you are not baptised before you die then are your sins not remissed and therefore you are not saved.
Truly shocking when to say that a believer believes that salvation is a complex issue.
There is nothing in the bible that I can see that says this.
And the fact is that Jesus never said it was complex.
Come to me all who are weary and I will give you rest.
Matthew 11:28-30
28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”
This is what Jesus said
Jesus first mention of being saved
Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
So to endure to the end will require the blood, grace, mercy, fellowship, the power of the Spirit, so many things that are in given us in the New Testament.
The Lord's second mention of being saved
Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
This shows how important this word is and how many overlook it that these would be the first two mentions of being saved by the Lord Jesus. We cannot endure to the end without faith, hope and love. We can't do it in our own strength.
Mark also repeats this same word. But then concludes with this word in chapter 16
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
This word is very interesting because He doesn't say that you will be damned if you are not baptized. We also learn from Peter that Baptism in water is a figure illustrating what it means to be immersed into God. It is very simple, some people just want to dip their toe into God, others don't want to get their hair wet, but if you want to have full salvation you need to fully dive into God.
But then we have this verse in Luke,
Luke 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
This is the story of the woman who was washing Jesus feet with her tears and wiping them with her hair. Jesus told the story about two people, one who had many sins forgiven and another that had few and asked who would love more. He then pointed to this woman who was greatly despised because her sins were many and showed how she had shown the Lord much more love. So don't just take the punchline and ignore the rest of the story. This woman was despised, she didn't want to go into Simon's house but she was compelled by faith, that is obedience to that inner voice of God speaking to you. She believed, she obeyed and she was saved. This should be our experience everyday. For example, I don't have the slightest interest in this thread, I looked at it and ignored it. Then two nights ago the Lord rebuked me in my dream. I was very bothered when I woke up, but the interpretation was clear, He had thrown me the ball and I had refused to catch it and thought that was a joke. So then, like this woman I am here, sharing on this thread.
Luke 18:42 And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.
This is a similar story. We have a blind beggar who is crying out to the Lord to be saved, everyone around rebukes him and tells him to be quiet but he won't. The Lord asks what does he want, he wants to receive his sight and the Lord says this word. If there is someone who is truly crying out to receive their sight concerning salvation don't let BillG or FreeGrace2 rebuke you and keep you from coming to the Lord. Be insistent, God desires all men to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
John 5:34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.
This is said to people who were attacking the Lord for healing a paralytic man on the sabbath day. The man believed the word the Lord spoke, he obeyed and as a result he was healed. However, he was then told to sin no more or a worse thing would befall him. But the chapter quickly becomes this big argument over whether or not you can heal on the Sabbath day. Also the Lord's warning to "sin no more" was when Jesus found him in the temple. So this chapter portrays all these religious leaders beating people over the head with their teaching on the sabbath as paralyzed beggars. Their doctrine on the sabbath paralyzes people. It also portrays being saved as being able to rise and walk. The sinful doctrine was that you lie besides this pool and wait for the waters to be stirred if you want to get saved.
Finally
John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
This chapter talks about thieves trying to sneak into the pen where the sheep are kept by crawling up some other way. There is only one way, the way that Jesus has given us in these verses and in the entire gospel.
I have already answered that question in clear black and white language, it is insulting to ignore what I have written.
1. Peter says baptized in the name of Jesus. Peter also says that being baptized in water does not save you, it is a figure of being immersed into the person of God, hence "immersed into the name of Jesus".
I also quoted the verse that says if you believe and are baptized you will be saved, if you do not believe you will be condemned. I pointed out that Jesus did not say that if you are not baptized you will be condemned.
There are people who are unable to be baptized for various reasons. But one valid example is that some prisons will not allow it. So if a person is serving a life sentence they may not be able to be immersed into water. That does not mean they cannot be saved and it does not mean they cannot be immersed into the name of Jesus.
However, there are others who use this as an excuse to ignore the Lord's word. Jesus was very clear and straightforward, believe and be baptized. Jesus was also baptized just so there is no confusion about what He was talking about. if you are truly saved then Jesus is Lord of your life, and if Jesus is Lord of your life you will obey His commands. Therefore I do have a big issue with anyone who tries to explain away the need for baptism.
I wrote all this already and told you this repeatedly. It is always surprising to me how rude and insolent people professing to be Christians who have put on Christ can be.
What is the apostasy?
This is where people depart from the faith that was once for all given. It is crystal clear that anyone who is saved is told to be baptized, so why is there any dispute over that?
"Is that what saves us" reminds me of "surely you won't die".
The Lord said don't eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Simple, don't eat from that tree.
The Lord said to believe and be baptized and you will be saved. Simple, believe and be baptized and you will be saved.
This is where people depart from the faith that was once for all given. It is crystal clear that anyone who is saved is told to be baptized, so why is there any dispute over that?
"Is that what saves us" reminds me of "surely you won't die".
The Lord said don't eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Simple, don't eat from that tree.
The Lord said to believe and be baptized and you will be saved. Simple, believe and be baptized and you will be saved.
Rebellion against the word of God
Jude 11 Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam’s error; they have been destroyed in Korah’s rebellion.
The rebellion of Korah is sometimes translated as "gainsaying" of Korah. The literal translation is "against the word". When we do things contrary to the word of God that is rebellion. He was the cousin to Moses. He led a rebellion against Moses with Dathan and Abiram. They are rebelling against a type of Christ. They made the fundamental mistake of thinking "all are holy". They led a rebellion with 250 princes of the assembly, famous in the congregation, men of renown. Isn't that how the world operates? Let's get a famous Hollywood actor like Tom Hanks. Let's get the President of the US to have a big Christmas tree, and also Rockefeller center, etc. The basic argument they were making is that Moses is too restrictive, like the Lord who said "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no man cometh to the father but by me". This reminds me of a post a few back where I was asked by FreeGrace2 what pastor was teaching this. I had posted verses from the Bible, Paul, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, etc. Why can't we just discuss the Bible, why do we need some puffed up prince or cousin to Moses to tell us the truth?
Think about this question "is that what saves us"? Sounds good, sounds important, but what is the point? Are they really asking that if we aren't saved by being baptized in the water do we really need to do it? That is rebellion against the word of God.
Those in rebellion go straight to sheol alive.
Jude 11 Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam’s error; they have been destroyed in Korah’s rebellion.
The rebellion of Korah is sometimes translated as "gainsaying" of Korah. The literal translation is "against the word". When we do things contrary to the word of God that is rebellion. He was the cousin to Moses. He led a rebellion against Moses with Dathan and Abiram. They are rebelling against a type of Christ. They made the fundamental mistake of thinking "all are holy". They led a rebellion with 250 princes of the assembly, famous in the congregation, men of renown. Isn't that how the world operates? Let's get a famous Hollywood actor like Tom Hanks. Let's get the President of the US to have a big Christmas tree, and also Rockefeller center, etc. The basic argument they were making is that Moses is too restrictive, like the Lord who said "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no man cometh to the father but by me". This reminds me of a post a few back where I was asked by FreeGrace2 what pastor was teaching this. I had posted verses from the Bible, Paul, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, etc. Why can't we just discuss the Bible, why do we need some puffed up prince or cousin to Moses to tell us the truth?
Think about this question "is that what saves us"? Sounds good, sounds important, but what is the point? Are they really asking that if we aren't saved by being baptized in the water do we really need to do it? That is rebellion against the word of God.
Those in rebellion go straight to sheol alive.
One common characteristic of the apostasy
Speak evil of no man
Jude 9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”
What a very strange verse. It is directly related to verse 8 which talks about the apostates speaking evil of dignities. Titus tells us we should speak evil of no man (Titus 3:2).
This matter is so special that it requires its own verse to emphasize it. This is stunning, Michael dared not bring a railing accusation against the devil. This is amazing, what many in the church want to do is pretend Satan is not there, this is not an idol, we are not involved in apostasy, etc. Big mistake. On the other hand many will rail against dignities and speak evil of men. Yes, it is true that these celebrations have pagan roots and yes it is true that we have been told very specifically to flee idolatry and that there is no communion between the table of idols and the table of the Lord. All that is true. But what is also true is that Jesus is Lord. He is the one that will rebuke them. In the meantime we need to learn to follow the Lord, hold to His word, and obey His commands and one of the commands is to speak evil of no man.
Michael is no wimp, he is the warrior angel, and he was on a mission from God, yet even so he respects the chain of command. To me it is just like Lot thinking his mission is to reform Sodom and not stay on the mountain of communion. Abraham was no wimp and when Lot is taken captive Abraham leads his own band of warriors to go defeat four kings and rescue Lot.
Michael is the Archangel, meaning chief angel. The name means "he who is like unto God". The first mention is Daniel 10 -- a chapter that pulls the curtain back from the powers and spiritual warfare behind the curtain. There are these spiritual powers behind every country and every government. This angel got help from Michael in his warfare with the prince of Persia. Michael is introduced as having a mission to fight for God's people collectively and specifically for Israel.
In Revelation 12 we see that Michael fights against Satan and is in charge of kicking him out of heaven. There is a war going on right now about removing the leaven of apostasy from the church.
So then why are these two fighting over the body of Moses? There are 500 references to Moses and only 1 verse refers to the body of Moses. The Torah tells us that God buried Moses. Jude tells us there was a contest over this body, Michael won, and He is in charge of this sepulchre. One theory is that the sepulchre would have become an object of worship. So you can see why Satan would love to have the body to make it an object of worship. 2Kings 18:4 -- talks about how the Bronze serpent had become an idol. So imagine our salvation is a car, there are many different parts to this car, but if Satan can remove one part it could make the entire car unsafe. Hence "does baptism save us?" It is part of the car, believe and be baptized and you will be saved. Don't remove this from the word of God.
Jude's point is that Michael is on a mission from God to contend for the faith and even there he does not bring a railing accusation against Satan. This is the most extreme example he could give us for being under the headship of Jesus. Very strong warning against speaking evil and the focus is on keeping us balanced. We are to contend, not run and hide, but we are not to engage in evil speaking.
It is typical of those in the apostasy that they speak evil of others.
Speak evil of no man
Jude 9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”
What a very strange verse. It is directly related to verse 8 which talks about the apostates speaking evil of dignities. Titus tells us we should speak evil of no man (Titus 3:2).
This matter is so special that it requires its own verse to emphasize it. This is stunning, Michael dared not bring a railing accusation against the devil. This is amazing, what many in the church want to do is pretend Satan is not there, this is not an idol, we are not involved in apostasy, etc. Big mistake. On the other hand many will rail against dignities and speak evil of men. Yes, it is true that these celebrations have pagan roots and yes it is true that we have been told very specifically to flee idolatry and that there is no communion between the table of idols and the table of the Lord. All that is true. But what is also true is that Jesus is Lord. He is the one that will rebuke them. In the meantime we need to learn to follow the Lord, hold to His word, and obey His commands and one of the commands is to speak evil of no man.
Michael is no wimp, he is the warrior angel, and he was on a mission from God, yet even so he respects the chain of command. To me it is just like Lot thinking his mission is to reform Sodom and not stay on the mountain of communion. Abraham was no wimp and when Lot is taken captive Abraham leads his own band of warriors to go defeat four kings and rescue Lot.
Michael is the Archangel, meaning chief angel. The name means "he who is like unto God". The first mention is Daniel 10 -- a chapter that pulls the curtain back from the powers and spiritual warfare behind the curtain. There are these spiritual powers behind every country and every government. This angel got help from Michael in his warfare with the prince of Persia. Michael is introduced as having a mission to fight for God's people collectively and specifically for Israel.
In Revelation 12 we see that Michael fights against Satan and is in charge of kicking him out of heaven. There is a war going on right now about removing the leaven of apostasy from the church.
So then why are these two fighting over the body of Moses? There are 500 references to Moses and only 1 verse refers to the body of Moses. The Torah tells us that God buried Moses. Jude tells us there was a contest over this body, Michael won, and He is in charge of this sepulchre. One theory is that the sepulchre would have become an object of worship. So you can see why Satan would love to have the body to make it an object of worship. 2Kings 18:4 -- talks about how the Bronze serpent had become an idol. So imagine our salvation is a car, there are many different parts to this car, but if Satan can remove one part it could make the entire car unsafe. Hence "does baptism save us?" It is part of the car, believe and be baptized and you will be saved. Don't remove this from the word of God.
Jude's point is that Michael is on a mission from God to contend for the faith and even there he does not bring a railing accusation against Satan. This is the most extreme example he could give us for being under the headship of Jesus. Very strong warning against speaking evil and the focus is on keeping us balanced. We are to contend, not run and hide, but we are not to engage in evil speaking.
It is typical of those in the apostasy that they speak evil of others.