ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED, HYPER GRACE, ETERNAL SECURITY = FALSE DOCTRINE PROVEN!

[Matt210]

I just dropped the mic.

 

[Gr8grace]

Ok, so I read your premise multiple times in order to understand. I assume that I am misunderstanding, because the way that I read it supposes the point that it is better to rape, pillage, and murder with the assurance of salvation, than to do good works and repent of sins.

Its a tough one. Christianity is not plagued with a bunch of believers that rape,pillage and murder.

Christianity is plagued with people who are PROUD that they don't rape,pillage and murder.

We are plagued with a bunch of nice, sweet people who are stuck in religion and THINK they are doing good but it is evil because they don't even know how to be filled with Spirit.

Religion plagues Christianity, not a bunch of overt sinners. And this makes no sense to most, because all we pretty much get in this world is religion for food and not bible doctrine.

 

[Grace777x70]

This is just a general observation and not reflecting on you..I am just using tyour post to agree with the video way of "debating"


I agree....I find it interesting when you show scripture to someone to refute something said....they can't refute it..so then they attack you personally.....it's a telling sign to me...I'm wondering if we should just ignore them in those cases?

I am attempting to take these dialogues to a higher level. If anyone has two hours to spare, I strongly recommend watching this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKH1NGraKZM

This is a video of a Christian and an atheist debating their beliefs using facts, history, logic, and scripture. They are respectful throughout, but use sound logic to debate such points. This is the style of debate that I wish we could all engage in.

 

[Matt210]

This is just a general observation and not reflecting on you..I am just using tyour post to agree with the video way of "debating"


I agree....I find it interesting when you show scripture to someone to refute something said....they can't refute it..so then they attack you personally.....it's a telling sign to me...I'm wondering if we should just ignore them in those cases?

The Christian wipes the floor with the atheist in this video, the point was to show how a good dialogue works. You don't get this because you didn't watch the video.

 

[Matt210]

I enjoy this video for a number of reasons.

In the case of Christians debating atheists. Using the Bible will not work to change their minds until they can establish if the Bible is True. Atheists can use arguments against Christians until the cows come home. Christians need to open the atheist mind using reason, logic, and faith. Then when we establish that we can trust the Bible, the atheist will open his mind.

Again this makes no sense to anyone who hasn't watched the video I offered.

If you do wish to watch it, that style of debate is what I am proposing that all of us use, not necessarily on video, but asking questions, waiting for a response, and refuting with credible sources and logical Truth.

 

[Grace777x70]

No..I was agreeing with you..I just used your post to highlight how we should be debating subjects...

The Christian wipes the floor with the atheist in this video, the point was to show how a good dialogue works. You don't get this because you didn't watch the video.

 

[Grace777x70]

I agree..and I did watch it for about 15 minutes..I agree with the "style" of debating..I was just mentioning how some people attack other people personally when they don't agree...great video.

I enjoy this video for a number of reasons.

In the case of Christians debating atheists. Using the Bible will not work to change their minds until they can establish if the Bible is True. Atheists can use arguments against Christians until the cows come home. Christians need to open the atheist mind using reason, logic, and faith. Then when we establish that we can trust the Bible, the atheist will open his mind.

Again this makes no sense to anyone who hasn't watched the video I offered.

If you do wish to watch it, that style of debate is what I am proposing that all of us use, not necessarily on video, but asking questions, waiting for a response, and refuting with credible sources and logical Truth.

 

[Matt210]

I'm sorry Grace, I struggle in online forums to understand what people are trying to say. I prefer speaking with people in person.

I can't count how many times I mis-represent myself or misunderstand someone else.

On a side note, I love the name Grace. My little cousin Grace has one of the most beautiful souls I have ever met, so I have always liked the name.

 

[notuptome]

Let's go back to the original premise in post #1 referring to the once saved, always saved concept. I ask anyone here to answer this question.

If I declare Jesus Christ to be my savior and become saved, then start to murder, rape, and pillage the good folks of (I'm trying to think of a random city, how about Tokyo Japan) Tokyo, am I still assured of my salvation?

Setting aside the obvious flaws in your premise I can say that in the abstract if a saved person commits murder they are still saved.

Now I condition that on the truer premise that a genuinely born again person will not commit random acts of murder because they have the Holy Spirit to influence their behavior.

Truth is that just making a declaration is insufficient to save. Jesus said that no man comes to Him except the Father draw them. A man must come under the convicting power of the Holy Spirit of God to become saved.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 16:7 ¶ Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

Now what of you? Ever been drawn to Christ?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Matt210]

Setting aside the obvious flaws in your premise I can say that in the abstract if a saved person commits murder they are still saved.

Now I condition that on the truer premise that a genuinely born again person will not commit random acts of murder because they have the Holy Spirit to influence their behavior.

Truth is that just making a declaration is insufficient to save. Jesus said that no man comes to Him except the Father draw them. A man must come under the convicting power of the Holy Spirit of God to become saved.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 16:7 ¶ Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

Now what of you? Ever been drawn to Christ?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Thank you for your response. It is very coherent.

My response to your response would be a personal account (If you want me to go logical, Biblical, philosophical, etc. just tell me and I will offer a different response in accordance to what you're looking for)

I do my absolute best to follow God's Word. I still sin. Most of these sins are minor (Cathlics call them venial). Example, in my mind, my wife did something to upset me, I had bad thoughts.

This was sinful on my part to get upset with my wife. Now, what if I killed my wife because I was upset? Can we distinguish between the two forms of sin?

I didn't necessarily answer your question, but I don't think many of us are approaching these conversations from the same direction, I hope this makes sense and I hope we can have enlightening dialogue that will bring everyone closer to Truth.

 

[Utah]

I cannot understand why you keep asking this question, for it shows your contradiction. For you believe if a person routinely rapes, murders and pillages they are still entitled to attain heaven.
I have previously told you no one I know routinely doss those things who professes to be saved. But you believe they can do them and remain saved

I noticed yesterday you started to distort what I had written. People do that when they cannot scripturally defend their position

I routinely say that such people don't exist and you routinely say that they do. I'm calling you out on your hyperbole nonsense. Glad we can finally both agree that such people don't exist. And to which distortion are you referring. I don't hide from anything. I seek the Truth, and when I need to be corrected I am corrected with great joy and gladness. So if you feel I dodged anything or distorted anything, bring the specifics to my attention and I will address it.

 

[Matt210]

Thank you for your response. It is very coherent.

My response to your response would be a personal account (If you want me to go logical, Biblical, philosophical, etc. just tell me and I will offer a different response in accordance to what you're looking for)

I do my absolute best to follow God's Word. I still sin. Most of these sins are minor (Cathlics call them venial). Example, in my mind, my wife did something to upset me, I had bad thoughts.

This was sinful on my part to get upset with my wife. Now, what if I killed my wife because I was upset? Can we distinguish between the two forms of sin?

I didn't necessarily answer your question, but I don't think many of us are approaching these conversations from the same direction, I hope this makes sense and I hope we can have enlightening dialogue that will bring everyone closer to Truth.

Oh crap, please, don't accuse me of attempting to kill my wife. I immediately realize how some may take that statement. I love my wife.

 

[Matt210]

I routinely say that such people don't exist and you routinely say that they do. I'm calling you out on your hyperbole nonsense. Glad we can finally both agree that such people don't exist. And to which distortion are you referring. I don't hide from anything. I seek the Truth, and when I need to be corrected I am corrected with great joy and gladness. So if you feel I dodged anything or distorted anything, bring the specifics to my attention and I will address it.

Yikes, if you look through the last few posts, that is the proof that these people exist.

 

[Utah]

grace rules supreme, not our sin.

You have written, "grace rules supreme, not our sin."

Those who fail to recognize the power of the Cross see, "blah, blah, blah, blah, blah . . ."

But you get an A+ for effort, Brother.

 

[thecreationtutor]

Eisegesis - taking a verse, or an idea - then looking for scriptures to prove your point

Exegesis - taking the text for what it says = as a whole

Which view takes Eternal security Eisegesis?

 

[notuptome]

Thank you for your response. It is very coherent.

My response to your response would be a personal account (If you want me to go logical, Biblical, philosophical, etc. just tell me and I will offer a different response in accordance to what you're looking for)

I do my absolute best to follow God's Word. I still sin. Most of these sins are minor (Cathlics call them venial). Example, in my mind, my wife did something to upset me, I had bad thoughts.

This was sinful on my part to get upset with my wife. Now, what if I killed my wife because I was upset? Can we distinguish between the two forms of sin?

I didn't necessarily answer your question, but I don't think many of us are approaching these conversations from the same direction, I hope this makes sense and I hope we can have enlightening dialogue that will bring everyone closer to Truth.

God as a matter of fact does not make any distinction. Before a righteous and holy God all sin is equally repugnant. God has said that the soul that sinneth it shall die. God did not say the soul that commits mortal sin shall die or that the soul that commits venial sin shall just toast in purgatory for a while. No God said sin brings death. It is satan that continues to equivocate Gods word.

I do not think that there is a married man who has not at some time had less than respectful thoughts about his wife. The Holy Spirit keeps us from acting on those impure thoughts. Same goes for driving in rush hour traffic.

Many an unsaved man has followed through on such evil thoughts. Road rage and other domestic abuse is rampant in our civilized society.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Matt210]

You have written, "grace rules supreme, not our sin."

Those who fail to recognize the power of the Cross see, "blah, blah, blah, blah, blah . . ."

But you get an A+ for effort, Brother.

Can we all agree to stop this nonsense of trying to offend each other. I have been guilty myself. Utah is guilty with the statement blah, blah, blah. Can we please attempt to bring each other closer to the the Truth?

 

[gb9]

many of us attempt this often on here matt. but one has to want truth to be drawn closer to it.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Eisegesis - taking a verse, or an idea - then looking for scriptures to prove your point

Exegesis - taking the text for what it says = as a whole

Which view takes Eternal security Eisegesis?

What is it called when we look for a verse to prove a point that is based on what scripture says (as a whole)?

 

[RickyZ]

but one has to want truth to be drawn closer to it.

Keeping in mind that truth is only available to those who are willing to question what they believe. Very, very few here are willing to do that, and instead hold unyielding to their beliefs like a marine holds a hill... firing upon anyone who dares challenge it.