Obedience, Oh No!

[Ralph-]

What both of you two appear to be promoting hasn't worked very well. Exalting the 10 commandments is what churches have done in the US for many decades.

Uh, you mean nine. You know, that picking and choosing that the church accuses Messianic believers of doing.

What we're seeing now with the lawless grace doctrines is an over-reaction to the churches' hypocrisy of promoting the 10 commandments while living like hypocrites.

I can't argue with that.

The church had not been very good at teaching the new WAY to uphold the law of Moses. The church had indeed become powerless and in bondage to sin which proved to be fertile breeding ground for the present heresy of 'Freegrace' doctrine.

I don't see what you guys are teaching is any different.

We haven't gotten into the matter of HOW we are to uphold the law of Moses (not some other law). That is where the difference resides.

 

[preston39]

But nobody here is trying to convert anybody to Judaism. We are all under grace....but we need to obey grace ...not just hide behind it.

L...,

I wish not to bust bubbles...but, grace is not a law. Grace is extended to us.... by which.... we are forgiven for our trespasses. (grace was extended to us for forgiveness under the new covenant...New Testament.......because we can not .....earn that right).
Am I missing something in your thought?

 

[Ralph-]

You keep confusing commandments with law. That commandment is not the law of Moses even though it is a very small part of it.

No, I'm quite certain 'love your neighbor as yourself' is in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18 I believe). Even James refers to it as the royal law 'found in scripture'.

Is it the sum total of the law of Moses? Yes, in that when you keep that law you are keeping all of it, yet, no, in that it certainly is not the only law in the law of Moses. But it is definitely the law of Moses.

 

[Ralph-]

That's incorrect. The gentiles were already justified by faith. The pharisees said they had to observe the law of Moses to be saved. The Jerusalem council said they were to do no such thing.

... thou thyself [Paul] also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication. Acts 21:24-25​

Paul makes it abundantly clear in the example of the Galatians that the doctrine of the Judaizers was in regard to being JUSTIFIED by the keeping of the law of Moses:

"you who are seeking to be justified by law "-Galatians 5:4

Just deciding you want to keep the Sabbath observance does not automatically constitute one trying to be justified by the law. But that is exactly what the church has been taught and what they blindly believe.

 

[Ralph-]

John called it a new commandment.

He called it an 'old' commandment, one we've had from the beginning, then explains how it is new in revelation. Read it.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

We haven't gotten into the matter of HOW we are to uphold the law of Moses (not some other law). That is where the difference resides.

We are not to uphold the law of Moses. We are to uphold Christ.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

No, I'm quite certain 'love your neighbor as yourself' is in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18 I believe). Even James refers to it as the royal law 'found in scripture'.

Is it the sum total of the law of Moses? Yes, in that when you keep that law you are keeping all of it, yet, no, in that it certainly is not the only law in the law of Moses. But it is definitely the law of Moses.

No it's not. Re-read what I wrote earlier. It is a very small part of the law of Moses. There were many things one had to do besides just that one commandment. It's a new commandment that was an old commandment that has become the law of liberty, the law of the new covenant.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Paul makes it abundantly clear in the example of the Galatians that the doctrine of the Judaizers was in regard to being JUSTIFIED by the keeping of the law of Moses:

"you who are seeking to be justified by law "-Galatians 5:4

Just deciding you want to keep the Sabbath observance does not automatically constitute one trying to be justified by the law. But that is exactly what the church has been taught and what they blindly believe.

Acts 15 makes it clear that those judaizers said the believing gentiles (already justified) had to be circumcised and keep the law of Moses to be saved.

 

[Ralph-]

We are not to uphold the law of Moses. We are to uphold Christ.

"28For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law (of Moses). 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law (of Moses)(by this faith). "-Romans 3:28-31

Sorry, but I see Paul plainly telling us that faith upholds the law of Moses. No interpretation needed. In it's full context, we see the passage plainly says that.

I know it's a hard pill to swallow but you need to accept the fact that the church is in a wholesale deception about what happened to the law in this New Covenant. It's not easy to one day see that the leaders, and the church you trusted in haven't been telling you the truth because they don't know the truth. Like I said, it can shake the faith of some. But the truth is the truth. I'm not going to be one that ignores the plain words of the Bible anymore in favor of what the church says. Not doing it anymore. I got called out on it once and I'm not doing that anymore.

 

[Latour]

L...,

I wish not to bust bubbles...but, grace is not a law. Grace is extended to us.... by which.... we are forgiven for our trespasses. (grace was extended to us for forgiveness under the new covenant...New Testament.......because we can not .....earn that right).
Am I missing something in your thought?

Again, here as in other posts by other members you are speaking of mercy not grace. Grace is the power to do the will of God. (according to His mercy of course). It is resurrection power. You'll have to do an in-depth study on this if you want to get the biblical understanding right. Whenever Paul talks about the power given to us from God...it is grace. My grace is sufficient for you (to overcome all things) for <My POWER is made perfect in weakness.

 

[Ralph-]

Acts 15 makes it clear that those judaizers said the believing gentiles (already justified) had to be circumcised and keep the law of Moses to be saved.

We know from the whole counsel of scripture that they were teaching that the law of Moses is how you were justified and, thus, saved.

 

[Latour]

No it's not. Re-read what I wrote earlier. It is a very small part of the law of Moses. There were many things one had to do besides just that one commandment. It's a new commandment that was an old commandment that has become the law of liberty, the law of the new covenant.

Yet when Jesus asked a Pharisee what laws were the most important...he knew them. He got it right. Jesus replied that he was NEAR to the kingdom.

 

[Ralph-]

No it's not. Re-read what I wrote earlier. It is a very small part of the law of Moses. There were many things one had to do besides just that one commandment. It's a new commandment that was an old commandment that has become the law of liberty, the law of the new covenant.

Small or large part, it's still the law of Moses. And it's always been the law of liberty. It did not become that with the New Covenant. We can just now see that it is in this New Covenant. It sprang off the pages of the law through the illumination of the Spirit and so became 'new' in that sense. It's always been there, we can just 'see' it now in Jesus. Old, yet new. New, yet old.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Sorry, but I see Paul plainly telling us that faith upholds the law of Moses. No interpretation needed. In it's full context, we see the passage plainly says that.

I've already told you that it doesn't plainly say that at all. Paul didn't write "the law". I'd explain it again, but I know it'll fall on deaf ears. This is what the Greek says:

Do we then make void law by the faith? May it not be, but we establish law. Romans 3:31​

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Again, here as in other posts by other members you are speaking of mercy not grace. Grace is the power to do the will of God. (according to His mercy of course). It is resurrection power. You'll have to do an in-depth study on this if you want to get the biblical understanding right. Whenever Paul talks about the power given to us from God...it is grace. My grace is sufficient for you (to overcome all things) for <My POWER is made perfect in weakness.

This is not true. The holy spirit is the power to do the will of GOD. The holy spirit is given by GOD's grace. Grace just means favor.

The only people I know of who talk about grace like it's a power are hyper-grace folks.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Small or large part, it's still the law of Moses. And it's always been the law of liberty. It did not become that with the New Covenant. We can just now see that it is in this New Covenant. It sprang off the pages of the law through the illumination of the Spirit and so became 'new' in that sense. It's always been there, we can just 'see' it now in Jesus. Old, yet new. New, yet old.

It definitely wasn't the law of liberty because if you left other commandments undone you would die. We are free from the law of Moses by being under law to Christ, therefore it is the law of liberty.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

If one follows Christ's law - do not hate - then one will fulfill the righteousness demanded by "do not murder". On the other hand, if one follows "do not murder", yet hates in his heart, he has not done the righteousness required by Christ. So the effectual law is "do not hate".

WINNER WINNER CHICKEN DINNER!

And now I have a question. How do I follow Christ's law to not hate?

 

[Ralph-]

I've already told you that it doesn't plainly say that at all. Paul didn't write "the law". I'd explain it again, but I know it'll fall on deaf ears. This is what the Greek says:

Do we then make void law by the faith? May it not be, but we establish law. Romans 3:31​

Paul also did not write "the law" where he was talking about not being justified by the law of Moses in verse 28. Also in verses 20 and 21. So we know the absence of 'the' does not make 'law' mean something other than 'the law of Moses'.


It's impossible to make the plain words go away: In context, the 'law' that is upheld by faith is the law of Moses. I'm done with making the Bible not really mean what it says in order to protect a predetermined doctrine. I was called out on it, realized the deceitful error I was making, and quit doing it. The church has done much damage to the Christian faith by doing this. I've stopped making my contribution toward that ends. I'm simply not going to do it anymore. The passage says faith upholds the law of Moses and that settles it.

 

[Ralph-]

WINNER WINNER CHICKEN DINNER!

And now I have a question. How do I follow Christ's law to not hate?

Love God? (Another command in the law of Moses we are to uphold by our faith. In fact, the greatest of all commands).

 

[Ralph-]

It definitely wasn't the law of liberty because if you left other commandments undone you would die. We are free from the law of Moses by being under law to Christ, therefore it is the law of liberty.

The law 'love your neighbor as yourself' is not what set us free from the letter of the law concerning laws like Sabbaths and the death penalties associated with those laws. The blood of Jesus is what set us free from that. We are not at liberty in Christ because we have and keep the law of liberty, 'love your neighbor as yourself' in Christ.