Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord

[tedincarolina]

It is a difficult thing to understand Satan's powers since we are only informed in a limited amount of those details.

Hi @HealthAndHappiness

While that may be true for many, I'm fully aware, I believe, of all the ways in which Satan and sin permeate this earth. I think the Scriptures are quite clear that Jesus' kingdom is not of this earth. That the ruler who rules in the spiritual realm of this earth is Satan. Have you ever read 'This Present Darkness' or 'Piercing the Darkness' by Peretti? I think he describes a pretty accurate representation concerning what is going on all around us in the spiritual realm that we don't see with the eyes that God gave us. No he's not some cute little red devil with a pitchfork standing on your shoulder. He's a very powerful and cunning creature. And I believe that he does walk around seeing whom he may devour.

But I mean, if your point is to show me that Binny Hinn may have been a tool of Satan, he may have been. As I say, I'm confident that these words we're discussing from the OP are only concerning those who are living upon the earth and are considered to be christian, at least in their own minds.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Nope, I was spiritually redeemed when I was born again. The fact you have such a problem with what I've said and these truths of the Spirit seem to completely evade you makes me question how "saved" you really are. These things I speak of are like salvation 101, the fact you think we are born just fine with our spirit alive and well are a HUGE red flag in my opinion. I of course can't know if you or anyone but myself are saved, but your seeming ignorance of the condition of men's spirit from birth points to a HUGE misunderstanding.

The even bigger problem in your response is your ignorance of the purpose of the virgin birth. Just in case you didn't know Mary was not impregnated by a MAN, she was impregnated by the Spirit of God. So NO Jesus was not born of Adam, He was born of the Spirit. Again your interpretation and misunderstanding of this is another HUGE red flag in my opinion. You really seem pretty ignorant of the things of the Spirit, because you get a LOT of it wrong. I've said my piece and listened to yours, and don't see any point of continuing to beat my head against a falsely converted wall. You honestly do not seem to understand what the spirit of men even is if you think we are born with it, it's the very reason NO ONE is born connected to God as we were created to be, and IS the WHOLE POINT of what Jesus came to repair. I'm sorry if this offends you, that's not my purpose, I just have to do what He commands me to do and proclaim the truth no matter how bad it might hurt or upset. I don't dislike you or just want to argue here, but I find much truth missing in your post here and feel it's more loving to address them rather than ignore them. Even if it just makes me look like a know it all overstepping my boundaries. I just wish I'd have had someone to tell me this much earlier.

“Nope, I was spiritually redeemed when I was born again. The fact you have such a problem with what I've said and these truths of the Spirit seem to completely evade you makes me question how "saved" you really are.”

it doesn’t matter to me what you think of me being saved lol Jesus will decide that when I am judged like everyone else

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:


but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for there is no respect of persons with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:4-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I have no problem with what you say, I think some of it is right and some of it isn’t , im just trying to get you to acknolwedge the “ spiritual truth “ that God gave every one and said to believe and be saved “ and see if your able to accept it with your “great spiritual truth”
If your truth lol is opposed to Gods truth , what would you do just reject what he said is the truth ? Or would you think “ I must be wrong I should believe what the lord said he knows “

The only issue I see is the issue you have with what Jesus Christ the lord taught and said will save us , then what his apostles taught after that.

Im pretty sure the goal Of God is to bring people to repentance so they don’t perish like the Bible says. But every human has the freedom to decide what the truth is for themselves

I don’t have an issue with what Jesus the truth I’ll trust in the things he said will save my soul so I’m alright whatever judgements you form it’s not an issue , For me anyways.

My point again , is to sort of highlight that maybe Jesus knows better about salvation than we do and maybe he said repeatedly if we hear him and believe we’re going to be saved by him

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:48‬ ‭KJV‬‬


I think you have misheard me in no way have I said anything about your “ salvation “ that’s between you and God

i think your issue is more with the scriptures I’ve shared with you that don’t agree with what you already think like what Paul taught about judgement there and our works and eternal life and wrath ……we shouldn’t have to hide from those things the holy spirit is who authored them

but you aren’t in an argument with me telling you you don’t belong tonjesus or aren’t saved ect ect you just haven’t heard some of this stuff and aren’t liking it

 

[Beckworth]

We have a very good definition of faith from God Himself. Hebrews 11:1 “Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things unseen.” Matthew 7 is a very good example showing the true fact that faith alone does not save. Exactly as James 2:24 says. Jesus does not condemn their “faith”, or even say anything about the kind of faith they had. He condemns them for not “abiding in the doctrine of Christ 2 John 1:9. He is condemning their practices, their works, not their faith. They were believers, but they were lost. As John says “They don’t have God” because they don’t have God’s authority for what they are doing. They are working “ out side” of His law.

 

[Marilyn]

Marilyn, how do you come up with these doozies? Is this what your "apostles" taught you. You have revered what the Bible teaches.

Well, the Gentiles were NOT promised that God would rule through them. That is what God promised Israel. And the fulfillment of that is called the Kingdom (rule) of heaven. (Dan. 2: 44, 7: 27) That is why it is only written as the `Kingdom of heaven,` in Matthew, who brings out the Kingship of Christ. Jesus talks about that rulership in the Matthew 13 parables.

(And your comments are quite disrespectful to me and my teachers.)

 

[Pilgrimshope]

We have a very good definition of faith from God Himself. Hebrews 11:1 “Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things unseen.” Matthew 7 is a very good example showing the true fact that faith alone does not save. Exactly as James 2:24 says. Jesus does not condemn their “faith”, or even say anything about the kind of faith they had. He condemns them for not “abiding in the doctrine of Christ 2 John 1:9. He is condemning their practices, their works, not their faith. They were believers, but they were lost. As John says “They don’t have God” because they don’t have God’s authority for what they are doing. They are working “ out side” of His law.

“We have a very good definition of faith from God Himself. Hebrews 11:1 “

why not move beyond one verse ?

“But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is,

and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭

As we hear the consistent doctrine found in the gospel it’s meant to change how we believe . we’re meant to believe what Jesus is telling people which changes our hearts and minds regarding God , the world , what happens after we pass away , ourselves and our identity ect

for instance the gospel declares to believers in Jesus

“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We need to actually hear what he said tbough in the gospel and believe him like this stuff

“And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭23:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭18:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:1‬ ‭

“And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.

But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭11:25-26‬ ‭

“For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭12:50‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This builds faith in our minds and hearts because we believe him and we begin to have faith and understand we are the children of God he loves us , he came to save us . It becomes part of our faith and renewed spirit because we believe

“The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

but this is just one subject it’s like that with everything as we are willing to listen to the lord he changes us from within

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Paul never said he would “see” the completed word. After clearly saying that their knowledge was “in part” because they did not have God’s completed revelation, he says it’s like looking in a dim Mirror. You don’t get a clear picture. But he says when we have God’s complete word ( revelation it also will be like seeing God face to face because He talks to us through His written word. I Cor. 7:2 says we have the “mind of Christ.” Where? In the scriptures. We can commune with Christ and He talks with us through the scriptures. The Psalmist says in 27:8, “the Lord said, ‘Seek my face. Did God mean for David to literally see his face? God doesn’t even have a fleshly face that we can see. He means in a spiritual sense —not literally. And how could David ‘seek God’s face’? Through the Old Testament scriptures and by doing God’s will. It’s figurative.
David also said, “ your face Lord I will seek. Was he looking for a visual image of God’s face? Was he expecting to see God face to face? No, of course not. It was figurative and the only way David could seek God’s face was by seeking him through the scriptures that told him about God and how to serve him.
The point Paul is making in 1 Cor. 13 is clear. The “perfect” will of God (Rom12:2) was not yet available to them. Their knowledge was only “in part”; they could only prophecy “in part”. It was like looking through a dim mirror where you can’t “see” plainly. They weren’t really, literally looking in a dim mirror. This is just an illustration of what it was like not having the complete, perfect Bible. But once that “perfect” revelation is complete, it will be like seeing God face to face. If the first half of this illustration is figurative or just an illustration, then the second half of his argument is figurative also. It is a mistake to try to take the words “face to face” and make them literal. It is also taking those words completely out of context!
2Cor. 4:2 Paul talks about those who “handle the word of God deceitfully.” Let’s be honest with God’s word. 2 Peter 3:16 says, “ which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people TWIST to their own destruction, as they also do the rest of the scriptures.” Let’s make sure we are not doing that. Read the context and seek the truth.

This is what more qualified men had to say about what Paul was claiming: Paul was talking about seeing Jesus face to face is the "Perfect to Come."


From Church Fathers to Reformers all believe the Perfect to Come (τὸ τέλειον) is seeing God or when we die and see God:

Irenaeus understood τὸ τέλειον to refer to seeing God

Tertullian takes face to face to refer to the visible manifestation of Jesus.

Clement’s view of the passage is quite clear. He first cites verses eight and thirteen and then alludes to verse ten in his explanation. τὸ τέλειον is the believer’s state when he sees God.

Origen cites both verse twelve (“face to face”) and verse ten (“that which is perfect”) is about God.

Cyprian cites 1 Corinthians 13:12 (“seeing through a glass”) a “the secrets of God cannot be seen through now but face to face we shall know."

Eusebius states, “The apostle thought it necessary that the prophetic gift should continue in all the Church until the final coming of Jesus."

Methodius uses τὸ τέλειον in reference to the return of Christ and the events associated with it.

Basil relates τὸ τέλειον to complete (as opposed to partial) knowledge of the truth in heaven about God.

Ambrose addresses the issue of theodicy. In doing so he alludes to 1 Corinthians 13:9–10, relating the perfect to the future day when the believer will be face to face with God.

John Chrysostom identifies τὸ τέλειον with complete knowledge, which from the context of his remarks, will be when we see God.

Jerome wrote τὸ τέλειον refers to the state of perfection or Christian maturity that the believer reaches at death or when they see God.

Augustine pinned, the perfect to come is “When He shall appear, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.”

Leo the Great wrote, ‘face to face’ is seeing the very Godhead ‘as He is.’

John Calvin wrote, τὸ τέλειον as the state of perfection that comes to some extent at death, but only completely at the judgment.

Richard Baxter wrote, τὸ τέλειον as the state of perfection reached at death.

Matthew Poole identifies τὸ τέλειον as heaven.

John Locke relates τὸ τέλειον to “the state of accomplishment and perfection” that comes “hereafter.”

Doodridge believes τὸ τέλειον to refer to the heavenly state.

Gill identifies τὸ τέλειον as the perfect knowledge of God in the life to come.

Wesley includes this terse explanation of τὸ τέλειον: “at death and in the last day.

 

[studier]

We have a very good definition of faith from God Himself. Hebrews 11:1 “Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things unseen.”

This really isn't a definition of Biblical Faith, but it is part of the explanation of what Faith includes. If you think it defines Faith, can you explain what it means?

faith alone does not save.

On the one hand I agree with this statement. On the other hand, I disagree with it because Biblical Faith properly understood is saving, because it parallels and includes obedience to God.

This was Paul's mission to the Gentiles nations, which was to bring them to Faith-Obedience on behalf of Christ's name. Paul opens and closes Romans with this.

You're saying faith and obedience are separate and both are required. I'm saying Biblical Faith includes both. This is why when Jesus tells those who believed in Him in some sense and used His name, to go away from Him for their working lawlessness. He was telling them they really did not believe in Him as Biblical Faith/Belief is explained in His Word - His teachings - includes Obedience to Him. It's as simple as what I referenced earlier, "Why call Me Lord, Lord and not do what I say?" If we don't do what the Lord says, then we really don't think He is Lord a.k.a. the Christ, even though we speak of Him as such.

Once we see past this Heb11 supposed definition of Faith and let the Word explain the many parts of Biblical Faith, the entire message of the NC begins to be a bit easier to understand. Start with Faith-Obedience (Paul's stated mission) and then start looking at the commands of Jesus Christ. Example: Jesus' command to abide/remain in Him turns Faith-Obedience into Abiding Faith-Obedience. Add commands to endure and Abiding Faith-Obedience takes on that descriptive and means it endures to the end. And so on...

Also, once we see the importance of this "Obedience" part of Faith, this Obedience can be seen in the Text as attaching to nearly every important word having to do with our Life in Christ in Spirit. Words like Love and phrases like Children of God and Born from God are all directly connected with Obeying God. So is Salvation.

Disobedience resulted in the Fall of man. Obedience of Jesus Christ resulted in the New Man. Disobedience is a lack of Faith. Obedience is Faith and Faith is Obedience.

It's ultimately pretty simple conceptually.

 

[mailmandan]

We have a very good definition of faith from God Himself. Hebrews 11:1 “Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things unseen.”

Amen!

Matthew 7 is a very good example showing the true fact that faith alone does not save.

These many people in Matthew 7:22 had the wrong foundation and trusted in their works for salvation instead of trusting in Jesus Christ alone salvation. So, salvation through faith (rightly understood) in Jesus Christ alone still stands. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)

Exactly as James 2:24 says.

James is talking about an empty profession of faith/dead faith that merely claims to be genuine but demonstrates by the lack of works that it's dead. (James 2:14) In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

Jesus does not condemn their “faith”, or even say anything about the kind of faith they had. He condemns them for not “abiding in the doctrine of Christ 2 John 1:9. He is condemning their practices, their works, not their faith.

In Matthew 7:23, Jesus clearly states, "I never knew you" which means they were never saved, so they did not have saving faith in Christ. Their hearts were not right with God, so their "attempted external obedience" (apart from the righteousness of God which is by faith and the blood of Christ - Romans 3:24-28; Philippians 3:9) was still stained with sin. Their faith, practices, and their works are condemned. Hence, you who "practice lawlessness."

In regard to abiding, Jesus mentioned nothing about their failure to abide in the doctrine of Christ. BTW not abiding in the teaching of Christ is the demonstrative evidence that such a person does not have God (hence, I never knew you) just as abiding in the teaching is the demonstrative evidence that such a person has both the Father and the Son.

They were believers, but they were lost.

They may have believed "mental assent" in the existence of Christ and in historical facts about Him, but they did not believe in/on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and were not saved.

As John says “They don’t have God” because they don’t have God’s authority for what they are doing. They are working “ out side” of His law.

Descriptive of unbelievers. (John 3:18)

 

[decipher]

It's hard, or I'd even say impossible, for those outside of Christ to understand these verses fully in truth. In truth those who are in Jesus WILL do His will. What this "Lord, Lord" verse means is that just because you say "Lord, Lord" does not mean you're saved, those who are saved WILL be obedient.

We don't know what we have never known, imagined, been shown, told about, or experienced in any way. We cannot KNOW the spirit in us before we are born again, because it's dead when we are born. Until He resurrects our spirit and reconciles us with His Spirit, we are completely ignorant of these things. Like how can I think I'm saved, I do work for Him, and I sing Lord, Lord, every Sunday at church when I go. I repeated the prayer, got baptized and my pastor declared I was saved forever, yet I cannot know if I'm a false convert. However on the flipside, when God saves you in truth and opens your eyes to these things (which may happen when the pastor calls you up, I'm not saying it can't happen this way at all), you CAN KNOW when you are saved in truth. So we cannot know these things until we are born again, and in this state we WILL follow Jesus and do His will. That's the only way we can please God.

God does not judge what you do. He judges your heart. Jesus gave us his commandments which is to love God first and everyone else including ourselves second. You can know that you are saved when you find yourself loving everyone, including those that are against you and hate you. This kind of love is the same kind of love that the Father and Son share. The Father fills His Son with His Holy Spirit which is a portal through which the Father can enter the being of those indwelled. The Father fills His Son with His love, so much so, that the Son perfectly obeys the Father because of this state of being called love. When you receive the Holy Spirit into your being, you receive a portal through which both Father and Son can enter your being to fill you with the same love that they share. When our motivation for every thought and action is love for God first and everyone else second, we are being obedient to Jesus' commandments and walking in the Spirit. When Jesus tells them that he never knew them, that simply means that they really never received the Holy Spirit (portal) through which both Father and Son can enter and be part of the person indwelled.

 

[wattie]

Context is of false prophets who are not believers in the 'Lord, lord, .... ' verse.

Like wells without water.

Putting perfume on a corpse.

 

[CS1]

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Matthew 7

Do you see a danger here for some believers??

the only danger with that verse is not including all scripture to see the full context. Jesus is evident in what we must do not to hear those words.

 

[mailmandan]

Context is of false prophets who are not believers in the 'Lord, lord, .... ' verse.

Like wells without water.

Putting perfume on a corpse.

Matthew 7:21 - Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.